Ma'am; if could show us one or two; we could address your concerns.
Posted on 02/19/2012 7:03:57 AM PST by JustTheTruth
... Mitt Romney said he was "not concerned about the very poor" but would fix America's social safety net ...
But if he wants to see a welfare system that lets almost no one fall through the cracks while at the same time ensuring that its beneficiaries don't become lifelong dependents, he could look to his own church.
(snip)
Launched during the Great Depression, the Mormon welfare system was designed by church leaders as a way to match the ... unemployed faithful with ... temporary labor. As storehouse manager ... explains, goods and services were traded so that if a father needed food for his family he could get some in exchange for, say, repairing the fence of a widow down the road.
(snip)
... "Our primary purpose was to set up insofar as it might be possible, a system under which the curse of idleness would be done away with, the evils of a dole abolished and independence, industry, thrift and self respect be once more established among our people. The aim of the Church is help the people to help themselves. Work is to be re-enthroned as the ruling principle of the lives of our Church membership."
(snip)
. . . the primary source of capital support is the Mormons' monthly fast, as church members are asked to contribute what they would have spent on two meals. Many give much more, says Mr. Foster.
It is safe to assume that Mr. Romney's (...) donations are supporting the kind of safety net that government can never hope to create. Jesus may have said the poor will always be with you, but he didn't say Medicaid would.
(WSJ - must excerpt)
(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...
http://www.reagan.utexas.edu/archives/speeches/1982/91082a.htm
Q. Sir, are you afraid that — [inaudible] — coalition may begin to crumble a little bit now?
The President. No, no, not at all. But you ought to be asking questions about this, because I think this is one of the great examples in America today of what we've been talking about — about what the people could do for themselves if they hadn't been dragooned into believing that government was the only answer to this.
Here is an entire industry, as you can see. It is manned by volunteers, people from the church. The foodstuffs that are here are raised by volunteers, picked by volunteers. They're brought here, they're canned, they're put up in whatever packages are appropriate, and they're used to distribute to those people who have real need here in the State of Utah and all over the country, for that matter — people from the church. And you wonder why others haven't thought of the same thing and been able to do this same thing — so much more efficiently with so much less bureaucracy, in fact, virtually no bureaucracy, as compared to government's attempt to do this. This is all available for the needy, and all produced by volunteers.
Q. Have you seen anything comparable to this anyplace else that you've traveled?
The President. Yes, when I visited a similar institution as Governor in Sacramento, California, doing much the same thing there, the same group. And in my home State of Illinois, they have a shoe factory that is manned by volunteers from the church.
Q. Do you think something like this could maybe help curtail the inflation or help bring things back into the reach of people?
The President. What I think is, that if more people had this idea back when the Great Depression hit, there wouldn't be any government welfare today or need for it.
Q. It is too late now?
The President. No, no. That's why we have a task force — and we have representatives of the task force here, the task force headed by Bill Verity on seeking out ways that — the Private Initiatives Task Force — to seek out ways in which the private sector, the people themselves, can meet some of these problems.
Q. You're sure you're not upset with those Republicans who deserted you?
The President. No, no. Oh, I wish they'd have behaved differently, but then everyone makes mistakes.
Note: The exchange began at 11:47 a.m. during the President's tour of the Mormon Church Regional Welfare Cannery in Ogden, Utah. The President was accompanied on the tour of the cannery and cannery store by President Gordon B. Hinckley, member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ first presidency.
What are you talking about? I live right smack in the middle of 'em and every word, from PERSONAL OBSERVATION, is spot on.
Nana don’t you find it interesting that mormons are so desperate to clamp on to Reagan as one who approves/legitimizes them and at the same time the guy who they beleive will fullfill the white horse prophecy disowned Reagan and conservatism.
I assume you will get to an actual Mac or PC and correct it all for us, right?
What the BIBLE says about WELFARE:
Luke 12:18
"Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.
So true!
As a bible study leader; my hardest job is NOT getting knowledge of the bible into folks' heads; it is REMOVING the stuff in their heads that AIN'T in the bible!
Ma'am; if could show us one or two; we could address your concerns.
In case you don't recognize the title of this post, it is part of President Hinckley's answer to a reporter's question that appeared in the August 4 1997 issue of Time magazine. The reporter referenced the King Follett discourse. The answer supplied and the manner in which it was delivered caused the reporter to draw some false conclusions about a very important doctrine.The bothersome reply
"I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it, but I don't know a lot about it, and I don't think others know a lot about it."
The reporter wrote, "On whether his church still holds that God the Father was once a man, he sounded uncertain." That's an unfortunate conclusion. Of course I wasn't at the interview and neither were you but I'll bet the reporter mistook careful thoughtfulness for uncertainty. This doctrine is indeed deep territory and not something that is taught outside the LDS Church.
An earlier and similar interview
The San Francisco Chronicle, published an interview with President Hinckley in April of 1997. The reporter asked, "There are some significant differences in your beliefs. For instance, don't Mormon's believe that God was once a man?" President Hinckley responded, "I wouldn't say that. There is a little couplet coined, 'As man is, God once was. As God is, man may become.'"
He then said, "Now that's more of a couplet than anything else. That gets into some pretty deep theology that we don't know very much about." The reporter pounced on this. "So you're saying that the church is still struggling to understand this? " President Hinckley responded, "Well, as God is, man may become. We believe in eternal progression. Very strongly."
President Hinckley's response
President Hinckley said in October 1997 General Conference: "I personally have been much quoted, and in a few instances misquoted and misunderstood. I think that's to be expected. None of you need worry because you read something that was incompletely reported. You need not worry that I do not understand some matters of doctrine.
"I think I understand them thoroughly, and it is unfortunate that the reporting may not make this clear. I hope you will never look to the public press as the authority on the doctrines of the Church." And there lies the whole point of my post today. Some members did indeed become a little concerned by the exchanges they read in the press reports of those interviews.
Does the Church still teach this?
I know this is old news but it still bothers some people when they discover the anti-Mormon attacks floating around on the Internet. President Hinckley was right. We really don't know much about how our Heavenly Father became a God. The idea that he passed through a mortal probationary state like you and me is certainly not documented in any scripture of which I know.
However, it is still taught. In the Gospel Principles manual in the chapter on exaltation we read, "Joseph Smith taught: "It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the character of God. . . . He was once a man like us; . . . God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-46)."
Summary and conclusion
I don't know why this should bother anyone. The doctrine is true. Joseph Smith knew a whole lot more about this than I do. President Hinckley also knew a whole lot more about this doctrine than he was willing to share with reporters who did not have the background to understand it. It must have been difficult for President Hinckley to hold back and not teach it in those interviews.
It didn't bother me when I read the interviews back in 1997 and it doesn't bother me today. However, I know it does bother some people. We each have trials of our faith. I have never depended on an intellectual understanding of the gospel in order to accept it and live it. There are some things that just can't be fully comprehended without the temple, prayer and faith.
There are some things that just can't be fully comprehended without the temple, prayer and faith.
I can say that your chosen religion contains gross lies, distortions and blatant falsehoods too heinous NOT to respond to!
im a missionary of the ‘desert island’ doctrine
a child survives a shipwreck and lands on a desert island
he learns to catch his food and cook crabs and climb for coconuts
and he sees there’s a natural order to all things and uniqueness to every creature and providence for every need
he lays out under th stars and figures out they are other suns and there must be other worlds all spinning in harmony in an expanse greater than his understanding
he tries to fathom the enormity of it all and wonders what lies at the center of this creation
and his soul says ‘love’
then he’s rescued back to the world of man and desperately fights not to forget it
Baaaaah!
WE gots it good already!
Any other you doofuses gots a heat lamp where y'all sleep??
MORMON
ATTITUDES OF SUPERIORITY
1. I’m Superior; I have a special gift of the holy Ghost -- you don’t!
2. I’m Superior; I have God’s true priesthood power -- you don’t! 3. I’m Superior; I can go in God’s secret Temple -- you can’t! 4. I’m Superior; I’ve been Endowed with special Gifts and Knowledge -- you’re just normal! 5. I’m Superior; I’ll have my family with me in heaven -- you’ll be with strangers! 6. I’m Superior; I’m becoming a God -- you aren’t! 7. I’m Superior; My women know their place as servants of man and yours don’t. 8. I’m Superior; YOUR creeds are wrong because they come from man - mine comes from God (you can find each one printed in our Scriptures). 9. I’m Superior; I don’t HAVE a creed - I’ve got 13 Articles of Faith. 10. I'm Superior; I have 4 "Bibles"-- the standard works (5 if you count the JST) -- you've only got one: in as far as it is translated correctly. 11. I’m Superior; I can lie with impunity about such things as church membership, church growth, church doctrine, church history, church influence, etc. — -- You can’t. 12. I’m Superior; I am right (everybody knows) when I say 'evangelical' Christians are lunatics -- -- You’re a hideous narrow-minded bigot, who is persecuting me by practicing discrimination by saying I'm not a Christian.
13. I'm Superior; I have a testimony about a prophet -- you don't. 14. I'm Superior; I have a Scripture-producing Amos 3:7 prophet -- you don't 15. I’m Superior; I have a Living Prophet who talks to god every day -- you have a dim-witted hireling of Satan who only talks to himself. 16. I'm Superior; I have my calling & election made sure -- you don't. 17. I’m Superior; I have magic underwear to protect me from the bogey man -- you don’t. 18. I’m Superior; I have secret clasps and grips to give the angel so I get admitted to the celestial kingdom -- you don’t ;so you can’t. 19. I'm Superior; I know secret handshake codes for afterlife entrances-- you don't. 20. I’m Superior; I will see Joseph Smith setting on the right hand of GOD, when I get to Mormon heaven, and he will recognize me and judge me favorably -- You’re on your own; when you get to wherever you’re going! 21. I’m Superior; I’m going to hie to Kolob -- you’re going to who knows where. 22. I’m Superior; I get to have a harem and act like a celestial stud for time and all eternity -- you don’t. 23. I’m Superior; I have sun stones, moon stones, sky stones, cloud stones, Saturn stones, and the evil eye of Osirus guarding my temple -- You have nothing but a stupid cross.
24. I’m Superior; My church has billions in assets stashed away -- yours has taken a stupid vow of poverty. 25. I'm Superior; Last - we have the power to keep a whole race out of our priesthood if we wanted to reinsert our 148-year legacy (we ARE still keeping an entire GENDER at bay!) 26. I'm superior; I have the "higher law" -- everyone else "lives under the "lesser law' because I say so...(over and over). Revision 46.5
Semi-Official creed of the EXclusive club of Freeper Flying Inmans.
All rights liable to be abused.
|
“President Reagan spent some time in Utah visiting the LDS Welfare system and learning how it worked. Here’s an photo with him and the former and current LDS Church Presidents.”
That’s called campaigning... and?
Cut them some slack: they just MIGHT be TEXTING challenged!
After all, to actually point out Lie #3 might involve the extensive...
Line 14 words 7-27
“It is one thing to disagree with doctrine, it is quite another to lie to deceive.”
It is one thing to disagree, it is quite another thing to read minds and impute motives!
Also, it’s against the rules around here.
When you find a computer, man up and provide facts, logic and evidence instead of ad hominem attacks.
What mis-statements and distortions TP. Are you in his shoes, walking his walk. Do you have other first hand information that the information ANTWI provided isn’t true? How can you say distortions - when it is first hand testimony - thought you mormons were big on testimony. Or is it just easier to smear a messenger of truth, if so, sounds pretty bigoted to me TP.
even I could do better on an iphone JTT. So you have first hand account that the PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of AnT is lies, distortions and blantant falsehoods? Or are you just desiring to engage in mind reading and personal attacks
well theres a huge amount of stuff out there
again if you google: mormon welfare calling
you basically get the lds pr machine
but if you google: exmormon welfare calling
you get a birdseye view of the nuts and bolts from people who arent protecting the dark side of the chult
i dont want to drown the place out but i think the blog entries are interesting...you get a little portrait of other lds and other wards...i was surprised to read they paid a sunday school teacher $2fwk i’ve never known money to leave a bishops hand...anyway im posting this batch...church welfare still the subject
Gnite all ~A.~
So how much help is the Mormon church now giving members and nonmembers?
by dk Jan 2012
Their lack of humanitarian aid is disgusting - especially for a so called church. The numbers below are from an official Mormon church publication. Notice how they use the sum of a 25 year span to make the number look significant.
It’s been a long time since I posted here. With Mittens in the news, message boards routinely have people saying how the LDS church helps all its members in need and even those who are not members. Members’ tithes are always well spent and the humanitarian outpouring from the church will save the world and end hunger and poverty as we know it. (The next best thing to golden plates.)
I had some very bad experiences with the LDS church and “helping” its members in need, so I really take objection to such statements. I know there are members who do & did receive help when needed. But I also knew that bishops can pick and choose who they help and can be very capricious and can make members beg and grovel before any help is forth coming. It was not the utopia the church likes the media to believe. Or is it?
Has the LDS church changed? Does it really help anyone in need that shows up at the church door? Does it now give full financial disclosure of the money it receives and what it is spent on?
http://www.providentliving.org/welfare/pdf/WelfareFactSheet.pdf
Humanitarian assistance rendered (1985-2009)
Cash Donations $327.6 million
Value of Material Assistance $884.6 million
The value of material assistance is a wild guess from materials donated by members and not directly out of the church’s pocket. We will assume that it actually came from the church directly for simplicity.
Let’s look at the numbers.
Total number of years: 25 years
Total amount of aid: $1,212.2 million (cash 327.6 + materials 884.6)
Amount of aid per year: ($1,212.2 / 25 yr) = $48.5 million per year
Let’s assume an average of 12 million members of the church over that 25 year time span.
($80.8 / 12) = $6.73 per member given in charitable aid per year!!!
Just so that this is clear - The Mormon church only gives out $6.73 in charitable aid per member per year.
Are you disgusted yet? How many thousand of dollars did most of us give in tithing and did so faithfully for years. Where did all this money go? Shopping malls. Resort hotels. Hunting preserves for the wealthy and for general authorities. etc.
Mormons should have their own occupy movement and quit paying tithing until the books are opened. The media should demand openness of a non-profit organization. Most for profit public corporations give more charitable aid per employee than this so called church.
As a reference, here is some info on the $3,000,000,000 (3 billion dollar) mall: http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon403.htm
The cost of the mall (assuming now 14 million members) is ($3,000 million / 14 million members) = $214 per member. Compare that to the charitable aid. Is this a church or a corporation?
Leah
Re: So how much help is the church now giving members & nonmembers?
Apostle Oaks gave a talk in the Midwest last summer, telling the members that the morg won’t help them.
Ex-CultMember
Re: So how much help is the church now giving members & nonmembers?
Tithing does NOT help people, that’s what fast offerings are for. Tithing goes to build expense multi-million dollar temples and tv commercials.
dk
Re: So how much help is the church now giving members & nonmembers?
I guess the church should make that abundantly clear to all. Personally, I see tithing as the price of admission to the temple. I never had a temple recommend because I never went to a tithing settlement. I didn’t think my income was any of the church’s business. Plus, I suspected I was earning more than some of the men. With a lay priesthood and men who may have had similar jobs, I really didn’t trust members with that information. Just another pitfall of a lay priesthood.
Mia
Re: So how much help is the church now giving members & nonmembers?
Holy shiz. I couldn’t get them to reimburse me for a $20 table cloth.
The current Bishop seems cool and works with EQ/RS to do his best to ensure people are helped.
But based on previous experience, all that could change should another arse be chosen as Bishop.
freeman
Re: So how much help is the church now giving members &nonmembers?
What a f***ing cheap arse Bishop! A can of f***ing soup! I would have done a lot better than that from my own pockets if I knew a family in need like that. My TBM dad would have too, when he was Bishop.
freeman
...and shopping malls...
Pam Arnold
Re: So how much help is the church now giving members & nonmembers?
I have two sets of friends who have asked for church assistance. Both of their families only needed help with food for a couple of months at the most. Both are active tithe payers. Both were turned down. And both families still think this is the Church run by Jesus Christ. :( While I was in the Relief Society Presidency we had a lady from the ward who was in a wheel chair and was also a Vet of the Navy. She had serious back injury and could no longer work. A single sister. The Bishop told her she needed to get on public assistance. The church is too busy spending money on buildings and malls to invest in a Christian philosophy. I started attending a non-denominational church right after leaving the morg and couldn’t believe my eyes when right there in their bulletin was a financial statement. They update it weekly and that church gives over 80% to missions and the needy. A nice change. I love no secrets.
dk
Re: So how much help is the church now giving members & nonmembers?
So, not much has changed. Except, maybe, better PR by the church.
When I got help, I had NO CLUE how they treated others so I told several single mothers who were very much in need to go ask their bishops. NOT ONE got help.
The church supports and financially aids the FLDS
Given that lawmakers in both Utah and Arizona are mormon leaning (and generally make laws that have the blessing of the top leadership of the church), there are at least two ways in which the church in fact financially aids the FLDS:
1) They allow all wives and children subsiquent to the first wife and her children to collect welfare benefits without naming the father and the state feels no obligation to offset those monies by collecting from the childs father. In Oregon, if the welfare recipient childs father is known, the state sues the father for money paid out.
2) They allow non payment of taxes on homes that are not completely finished on the outside, but are finished on the inside and inhabited. This could be remidied tomorrow by changing the law.
I guarantee you that these problems are known to state officials of both states and are simply winked and nodded about.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 01:38PM by Devoted Exmo.
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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 01:44PMThey also usually deny services to wives, children & lost boys who have no viable means of support.
Instead of giving them the help they need, these poor victims are often forceably returned to their abusers.
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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 02:02PMRe: They also usually deny services to wives, children & lost boys who have no viable means of support.
Yep. I’m sure there are other ways in which the church aids. I wonder if their business are hired for some of the churches construction work in Southern Utah?
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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 02:08PMMy brother worked for a plyg company which did all needed window framing for all wardhouses
in the Western states.
They could do it cheaply because they didn’t paid sub=standard wages and slept in sleeping bags wherever they went. My brother wanted them to sponge off me when they were in town but I only offered dinner and a bed to him for one night and nothing to the others.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2012 02:12PM by Cheryl.
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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 02:14PMRe: My brother worked for a plyg company which did all needed window framing for all wardhouses
I am appauled, but somehow not surprised!!
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Posted by: guynoirprivateeye ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 02:01PMRe: The church supports and financially aids the FLDS
Im pretty sure... here in Washington.... property taxes are DUE on the property at the time an assessment is made, NOT on whether/not it is ‘completed’.
(IF WHAT YOU SAY IS ACCURATE) THAT’S INVITING A SHAM!
(Washington state) when you begin new construction here, you are required to give a cost estimate. I think that’s ‘Fact Checked’ as to the sq. footage, quality, features, etc. Most new construction receives an on-site appraisal, and ‘completed’ or not Doesn’t Matter! (best of my info).
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Posted by: King Benjamin ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 03:54PMOkay, I hate to burst your bubble.
First, the LDS Church has nothing to do with those welfare benefits. The policies under which the FLDS qualify for Medicaid and Food Stamps are nearly all handed down to the States from the Federal government, and State legislatures cannot legislate any other way.
Second, if you were to look at a Food Stamp or Medicaid case in Utah, you would find the father, 3 mothers, and 21 children all on the same case. There’s no intent to hide or exclude individuals in order to hide their lifestyle. What we DO have, are federal regulations forbidding us in any way to share these cases with agencies other than our own agency...including the police.
Third, there are some Federal $$ that we are more free to use how we wish, and to my knowledge, no out-of-the-closet polygamist receives those dollars. The State Legislature and the agency officials in Utah who decide how those dollars are spent have written policies to exclude households with more than 2 parents from those benefits.
Fourth, they do pay property taxes on those homes in Hildale. They proudly bring their receipts to the welfare office every year so they can get more deductions for their Food Stamps. I can’t speak for Arizona. I just know about Utah.
So, although I’m an ex-Mormon, I have to say Utah lawmakers do all they can to keep FLDS people off government benefits...but often, Federal policies, which were written for 1 and 2 parent families, get in the way.
Call your Congressman if you want that to change.
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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 04:39PMRe: Okay, I hate to burst your bubble.
You sound pretty knowledgable and I’m really please to read what you’ve written here. I understand there are income (or lack of) requirements to qualify for food stamps, etc. I am in no way opposed to those being given to the needy — even FLDS needy. So a few questions:
1) Are you saying that no additional wives or children are receiving food stamps unless the whole family qualifies as a unit? In other words, no wives subsequent to the first qualify as single parents with no income regardless of the husband?
2) Are you familiar with the “Bleed the Beast” philosophy? Have you heard it associated with the FLDS?
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Posted by: King Benjamin ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 07:39PMHere’s how Food Stamp households are set up...
Usually a sister wife submits the application for food stamps. They know they are safe to report the ENTIRE household, so she’ll place the names of the sister wives, the husband and all the children. When benefits are issued, all the income for everyone is included. Often there are 3 or 4 jobs because the sister wives work. So they are all included in the same food stamp household.
If a sister wife, who lives with the father, wants to apply for Food Stamps with only her husband and biological children, the application would be denied. This has to do with Federal guidelines regarding who should be included. Because the father is the bio-dad of all the children, the children of the other wives must also be included, as well as their mothers. So for food stamps an FLDS household is one big happy family.
It doesn’t work that way with Medicaid, which has different Federal guidelines. Each family unit in the household, father, mother and bio children, has a separate case. So, for one polygamist household there will be one Food Stamp case, but there can be multiple Medical cases, and the income from the sister-wives does not count against the Medicaid of the other wives.
I used to work in these programs, and I actually spent time in Hildale as an auditor, counting children, checking out bank statements, collecting income information, etc...
As far as “bleeding the beast,” I have no doubt it’s taught out there, but they’ve never said anything about it to my face. The FLDS, at least to my face, have never been anything but kind and warm...but only when they were expecting my visits. If I showed up unannounced, it was like a scene from “Deliverance.”
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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 07:48PMIt’s all about secrecy. Of course they don’t say anything to someone from the government “beast.”
That goes without saying.
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Posted by: Devoted Exmo ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 08:25PMRe: Here’s how Food Stamp households are set up...
Very interesting. But it begs a few more questions. How do they account for their income? Do their business and jobs intertwine a lot, in other words, do polygamists set up businesses, work for each other and underreport their incomes to qualify?
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Posted by: Cheryl ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 09:01PMYes, they do. (n/t)
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Posted by: Heresy ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 06:26PMRe: The church supports and financially aids the FLDS
An article a few years ago in the AZ Republic listed many ways that they ‘bleed the beast’ there. Sadly, the article is no longer online.
The FLDS is the local school district and the police dept. They collect money for the state to provide those services. Then they pull the kids out of school. They used school funds to buy a private jet for the FDLS leaders.
Same with police funding. They don’t provide real services and pocket the money.
The investigation found about 4 million a year in lost AZ state money if I remember correctly.
I think it was “Escape” that detailed some shenanigans for getting free medical care for everyone even though her husband was making quite a bit of money.
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Posted by: hello ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 08:17PMRe: The church supports and financially aids the FLDS
The plyg colonies in Mexico, Canada, and Utah/Arizona would never have gotten started or survived in the first place if they had not been subsidized by LDSCorp..
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Posted by: chimes ( )
Date: January 30, 2012 09:50PMsome first-hand knowledge...
...in October of 2010 I stopped in to Colorado City on my way to Phoenix. I was shopping in the general store there, and was in a long line of wives with covering over their heads and long skirts or dresses. I watched closely.....as far as I could tell, every one of them paid for groceries with some type of state of Arizona welfare check....it was amazing.
(exmormon.org)
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