Posted on 12/19/2011 1:34:47 PM PST by surroundedbyblue
This is the season of the year when Salvation Army volunteers are on the streets and outside stores ringing their bells to encourage donors to fill their red kettles with money for the poor. The longtime Christian organization provides food, shelter, elderly services, disaster relief, prisoner rehabilitation and many other forms of aid.
But it also has adopted a position statement that is a step toward abortion, and pro-life leaders are expressing alarm at what they see developing.
In its statement on abortion, the Salvation Army says: "A number of biblical and theological principles underpin The Salvation Army's position on abortion. …
(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...
The laws of the rodef were given by G-d on Mt. Sinai along with the rest of the Torah. They were not dreamed up by Talmudic rabbis, as I have stated to you numerous times. But you are going to continue to ignore that, aren't you . . . all the while expressing horror that Protestants could possibly doubt that the saying of three masses on 12/25 is an instruction of the apostles. Catholicism, it seems, is shot through with multiple hypocrisies.
I completely reject your attempt to claim this concept of "rodef" as applicable to "mandatory abortion," and furthermore I see it as grave apostasy, and downright evil.
It is an "apostasy" from the Catholic perpsective. Not everyone is Catholic. And this is not "my attempt." It is simple Halakhah. You think I make this stuff up? I suppose I made up the laws commanding and governing the extermination of the Seven Nations of Canaan as well?
If you want to claim that which is intrinsically evil is somehow "mandatory,"
What is and is not intrinsically evil depends entirely on Divine Law. Neither you nor I can change what that Law says.
that's between you and your god.
You mean HaShem, Creator of Heaven and Earth and Master of All Worlds?
But don't try to come on this forum and claim your personal opinion in this regard somehow reflects "G-d's laws."
I have been "coming to this forum" for over twelve years, and this is not my "personal opinion" any more than it is your "personal opinion" than missing mass on sunday without a good reason is a mortal sin. Different religions have different laws. Deal with it.
So far as I know, this is not a Catholic forum and Catholicism is not the supreme explicator of what constitutes "conservatism."
Do you want to boot all Orthodox Jews, Noachides, and Protestants from the conservative movement because their religious beliefs (surprise, surprise) don't agree 100% with Catholicism? I'm afraid a Catholics-only conservative movement would be very small in America.
Finally, you seem to think that I came to this thread to debate or defend my position. I did not. I came merely to state, to the best of my poor knowledge, the authentic Jewish/Noachide Halakhic position. I'm not forcing anything on you, so please feel free to disagree (until the eschatological triumph of HaShem and the Torah, after which you too will agree).
Excuse me. I was not aware that Catholicism taught "sola scriptura" (when it suits its purpose).
To run across someone claiming to propound "G-d's Laws" yet be unwilling to share the scriptural foundations of those "laws" is unheard of, and calls into question anything you write on this forum.
The Written Torah consists of nothing but a gigantic string of consonants without vocalization or punctuation. It is the Oral Torah that provides these and instructs (down to the minutest detail) how a kosher Torah Scroll is to be written.
I don't expect a Catholic to accept Jewish Oral Torah, but please have the consistency to recognize that your rejection of that Oral Torah is the basis for Protestant rejection of Catholic oral tradition.
Thank you.
I have said not one word about "convenience abortions" or anything about rape or a child who is going to be handicapped. As I understand it, these are all strictly forbidden. I was solely trying to explain (as I understood it) the Halakhah on when abortion is strictly forbidden (most of the time) and the tiny, miniscule number of times when it is mandatory because the baby qualifies as a rodef. As a matter of fact, as I understand it medicine has advanced to the degree that abortion will never be justified. But the Halakhah remains the Halakhah even when the conditions it is dealing with no longer exist (such as the laws of slavery, concubinage, polygyny, and extermination of the Canaanites). I can't do a single solitary thing about that. Why does everyone seem to think I'm making this stuff up? The only opinion I have on abortion is the same I have on every other topic: let all be done in accordance with G-d's Law. Period.
Only non-Jews are permitted necessary abortions in the first three months. Jews are permitted necessary abortions up until the baby's head emerges from the birth canal. Abortions are only permitted when they are necessary, and not at any other time whatsoever. Again, as I understand it, abortions are no longer necessary for anything which means for all practical purposes they are all forbidden.
I make no distinctions between "Hebrew" and "Jewish" (which sounds higher critical to me). It is anti-Semites and atheist university professors who claim there is a difference between "Hebraism" and Judaism.
The presence of a soul has nothing to do with it. Convicted murderers have souls yet they must be executed (in accordance with Divine Law). One's enemies in war have souls. A rodef pursuing someone to kill him has a soul. Yet in all these cases the taking of human life is commanded.
Man is not the measure of all things.
Oral Torah? Riiiiight.
At least you are consistent. Some people reject the Oral Torah while believing in an "oral new testament."
“It is simple Halakhah. You think I make this stuff up?”
SOMEONE did.
Unfortunately, you did not quote the post where I went "off topic" so I don't know how to respond to you.
“It is simple Halakhah. You think I make this stuff up?”
SOMEONE did.
Believe it or not, it wasn't me. Kindly aim your argument at Jewish poseqim and Halakhists.
PS: Anyone who rejects that the Oral Torah comes from G-d on Mt. Sinai or who claims that "Judaism" began long after Moses is not an Orthodox Jew.
To: Zionist Conspirator
What does that have to do with this issue? You’re off subject.
100 posted on December 20, 2011 2:17:25 PM EST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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Yes...they are two different organizations
Catholics obviously reject the Oral Torah. They then have no grounds on which to attack Protestants for rejecting Catholic tradition.
If Protestants want to attack the laws of the rodef as "not being in the Bible" I can understand it. But for someone who rejects sola scriptura and insists that some truths were handed down orally to do so? Sheer hypocrisy.
We have Gods written Word. We don’t play “telephone” with Scripture.
Again, this has nothing to do with the Salvation Army and its support for abortion.
Imho, this important issue regarding the Salvation Army has been hijacked. I think it stinks.
As I said, I respect your consistency. Some of my critics on this thread do not share it.
Thank you.
The original post was with regards to the Salvation Army's policy on when abortion is permitted. I merely came into the thread to explain, to the best of my poor ability, the Halakhah on this issue, which isn't 100% consistent with the Catholic position, though it agrees with it more than disagrees with it.
Then every one decided I was an evil nefarious liberal who had come out of nowhere to "promote abortion."
Have a nice day.
“I make no distinctions between “Hebrew” and “Jewish” (which sounds higher critical to me). It is anti-Semites and atheist university professors who claim there is a difference between “Hebraism” and Judaism.”
Then you would be wrong and you need to study more.
“Only non-Jews are permitted necessary abortions in the first three months. Jews are permitted necessary abortions up until the baby’s head emerges from the birth canal. Abortions are only permitted when they are necessary, and not at any other time whatsoever. Again, as I understand it, abortions are no longer necessary for anything which means for all practical purposes they are all forbidden.”
Do you even realize how insane this sounds? There is only ONE Divine Law and it is for everybody. ANYTHING else is a rationalization by MEN who dare call themselves holy and claim to speak for HaShem. HaShem SPOKE. That you would need a mere mortal to explain to you what HaShem REALLY meant is the height of hypocrisy.
“The presence of a soul has nothing to do with it. Convicted murderers have souls yet they must be executed (in accordance with Divine Law). One’s enemies in war have souls. A rodef pursuing someone to kill him has a soul. Yet in all these cases the taking of human life is commanded.”
First of all, you are the one who bounded onto this thread talking about ‘ensoulment’ at three months, not me.
And as for MURDERERS, it is the ONE unforgivable sin in ‘Judaism’. ALL other things may be forgiven, but murder, never. The reason is because once you commit that act, you have deliberately destroyed a soul which makes yours forfeit. You can never ask forgiveness from a victim of murder.
MURDER is different from war. And KILLING is not always murder. Don’t play games with semantics.
It was not my intention to hijack the thread. I simply responded to the Salvation Army policy statement with what is (as I understand it) the Halakhic position. Then everyone got mad at me.
Let's just say that Catholicism and Judaism/Noachism are different religions and don't agree on everything 100% and leave it at that.
Thank you for stating your position.
That you hold it is your problem.
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