Perry Says Bachmann Wrong on HPV Vaccine Claims

National Journal ^ | September 14, 2011 | Rebecca Kaplan

[traderrob6]

You mean like all the other mandated vaccines?

[CharlesWayneCT]

YOu do know that in the years that Gardasil has been on the market, more than 36 million people have been vaccinated, and there are NO deaths that have been found to be caused by the vaccine?

You can argue over whether a 12-year-old should recieve the vaccine. It is meant to be given before you become sexually active, and it requires a 6-month schedule, and if you already have an HPV it can actually be more risky, so the normal situation is for the vaccine to be given to virgins.

There is little evidence that Gardasil wasn't properly vetted, or that it's trials were flawed. The statistics since it became widely available show that claims that it was unncessarily risky are false.

Sarah Palin's Alaska encourages pre-teen girls to get this vaccination. They push it on a government web site, with government (taxpayer) funds, and also encourge people who don't qualify for the free program to still get the vaccine.

It is voluntary, which LONG AGO was the argument against Perry -- making it a requirement. Somehow, Bachman has managed to trick some conservatives into thinking the issue is the vaccine itself, like either it is evil because it vaccinates against a sexually transmitted disease (apparently those are God's punishment for sinful actions, so we shouldn't vaccinate for them), or that it is bad because it will make your kids retarded, and is unsafe, and everybody should actively work to get it off the market.

But when Sarah Palin was Governor of Alaska, she had no problem with signing up for a federal program to offer this supposedly evil, sinful, child-killing vaccine to the pre-teen girls in her state -- So long as parents chose to do so voluntarily.

I am actually hard-pressed anymore to figure out what the valid charge is against Perry. It was that since this was not a communicable disease, we shouldn't require it for attendance in public schools. I agree with that, I fought the requirement in Virginia, and Perry was wrong to add it to the list for THAT reason.

But that apparently wasn't a good enough reason to attack Perry, so people started making up all sorts of other attacks. Like:

1. the drug is unsafe -- it isn't.
2. he only approved it because he got money from Merck, or because a friend of his told him to do it -- there is no evidence for this claim, no e-mails, letters, or prior art suggesting a change of heart. Meanwhile, there is lots of evidence to the contrary, like his relationship with the women who pushed this because of real deaths, his parent's fights with cancer, etc. He had plenty of reasons to think that vaccinating pre-sexually-active girls with a vaccine meant for pre-sexxually-active girls to prevent the spread of a sexually transmitted disease which causes cancer deaths and other lifetime illness was a good thing that should be encouraged (like Alaska encourges it).
3. he forced kids to get the vaccine against their parent's wishes -- a charge disproved by the very words of the EO that said the parents had the "final authority", and by the trivially easy opt-out process where you just get online, fill out a 30-second form, hit enter, and the state SENDS you a filled-out opt-out form for you to sign and turn it. Easier than almost any other interaction with government.

[bvw]

spending weeks discussing the addition of a single FDA-approved vaccine to a list of school-required vaccines

When you plaster your face and chest with mud, stick feathers in your hair, and dance around the fire shaking gourd sticks do you chant "FDA! FDA! FDA approve this offering!"

It's kind of anti-science (in the real sense of science) to take the FDA today as a FINAL AUTHORITY on anything. Stop being an anti-science ritualistic shaman chanting their rosary.

[bvw]

t is meant to be given before you become sexually active

"Sexually active"? You meant and THEY aren't being accurate in that use of a term. Truth is, what is meant is "sexually promiscuous."

You and yours are sexually promiscuous?

[bvw]

he only approved it because he got money from Merck, or because a friend of his told him to do it -- there is no evidence for this claim,

"Only" is the weasel word in that. Mr. Perry has been indirectly rewarded before and since by Merck and affiliates. Influence. Influence is in a web of related indirect agreements and arrangements, many below the reporting radar. But enough have been above the radar to suggest the size of the iceberg beneath the reflective layer.

[CharlesWayneCT]

BTW, I should note that I changed my position on the efficacy of Gardasil over the last two years, as studies were performed based on the actual vaccinations and it became clear that it was effective, and the side effects showed it was not unreasonably risky.

If you search my posting history, you will see that back in 2009 I thought people who knew they were waiting until marriage, and had their spouses tested for HPV, probably wouldn't want to risk this vaccine. I'm not sure I'd feel the same way today, although that is certainly the lowest-risk group.

I never had my daughter vaccinated, but now that she is 18, I reminded her to discuss it with her physician at her next check-up, and to make her own decision.

But I still don't think it should be on the school-required list. I wrote about that back in 2008, and my one column even got cited on a vaccination-news web site (unfortunately, my column was on a web server that my paper took down, so it's not available online anymore):

February 8, 2008 - Double standards with HPV vaccine - Manassas Journal Messenger - "The government has no business forcing people to do what government thinks is best for them. [...] Parents can decide about vaccination in consultation with their doctors, not on orders from the government." The Virginia Department of Health currently requires vaccinations against 11 diseases that equally affect men and women, including measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox and polio. My inner Libertarian would carry Mr. Reichley's position to the logical conclusion that parents should be able to decide on any or no vaccinations for their children. Yet Mr. Reichley only opposes mandatory HPV immunization. Why?"

So I was known at the time to oppose Gardasil vaccination while not fighting other mandatory vaccinations.

[bvw]

trivially easy opt-out process

Just like income tax returns could be described. Go to a website print out a few forms, fill them out, send them in.

Is "trivially easy" an honest description? Only of printing out the forms. NOT EASY AR ALL TO FILL OUT HONESTLY.

[bvw]

But I still don't think it should be on the school-required list.

That's why I like you. On the other hand I can't understand booster-rama of excuses you make for the Perry EO.

[CharlesWayneCT]

Forcing vaccination when there IS credible evidence that it’s harmful is eugenicist tyranny.

No deaths have been attributed to Gardasil. However, there are sometimes deaths with vaccines, so it could be at some point someone will die and it will be shown to have been caused by the vaccine.

I did a numeric analysis elsewhere that showed that you would expect between 40-80 people or so to die within 2 days of getting the gardasil vaccination if they were between the ages of 8 and 24 or so, simply because in the population of people who got the vaccine (36 million+), there are about 96 deaths a day, so looking at the percent that got the vaccine, we can estimate the random deaths expected.

But by what evidence to you make the astounding claim that the makers of Gardasil, or the politicians or states who support the vaccine, are targetting certain groups for eugenics? Or are the simply trying to kill off people indiscriminately?

[EDINVA]

“...which one would you prefer looking out for your children?”

Neither. I won’t be voting for babysitter of the year, I’ll be voting for President of the United States/Commander in Chief.

[CharlesWayneCT]

There have been no deaths attributed to the vaccine. There have been 49 deaths that occured proximately in time to the receipt of the vaccine. however, that is simply a reporting measure. People die all the time, and in the group receiving the Gardasil vaccination there are 90 deaths a day. So if half of them got vaccinated, you would expect that in 45 cases, they would have died shortly after receiving the vaccine.

The CDC has studied 29 of the deaths where they had useful information, and none of the 29 deaths was attributed to the vaccine.

So, at this time, there are no “known” deaths. The side effects that have been authoritatively linked to the vaccine are also within reasonable norms. This is not surprising, as there is nothing in the vaccine that would make it particularly risky (except there was a manufacturing issue that tainted some of the vaccines at one point a while ago, at least according to press reports).

I used to think the vaccine was too risky to consider unless you were sexually active, but it appears much less risky than was thought in 2009. We have millions of actual vaccinated people to track now.

[D-fendr]

HPV vaccine only protects one kind of virus, there are several that cause cervical cancer. There HAVE been deaths and serious injuries attributed to this vaccine. There are acceptable risks with all vaccines,

Except for the last sentence, I think your post is misleading or inaccurate. Gardasil prevents the HPV virus responsible for the majority of cervical cancers (around 70%), and no deaths are attributable to it according to the CDC and FDA.

From documents on the FDA page on Approved Product: Gardasil.

Based on the review of available information by FDA and CDC, Gardasil continues to be safe and effective, and its benefits continue to outweigh its risks…

Based on ongoing assessments of vaccine safety information, FDA and CDC continue to find that Gardasil is a safe and effective vaccine.

[CharlesWayneCT]

1 in 4 women are currently infected with a form of HPV. At some point in their lives up to 75% of women will be infected.

A vast majority of people become sexually active at some point in their lives. The only way to be certain that you cannot be exposed to a sexually transmitted disease is to only have sex with people who your are certain have never had sex, or who have been tested for HPV.

You don’t have to be “sexually promiscuous” to get HPV. It is so prevalent that you have a reasonable likelyhood of catching it even the first time you have sex.

And since HPV can also be spread through oral sex, you don’t even have to have intercourse; and it is an unfortunate but true fact that an increasing number of girls are engaging in oral sex as a “non-sex” act.

Of course, given the sexual promiscuity in our culture, it hardly argues against the vaccine to claim that only sexually promiscuous people are at risk. I would note that Sarah Palin’s daughter had sex with a guy who likely had sex with other girls, and she could have been exposed to HPV, and gotten cervical cancer, and died. Yet I doubt anybody would have expected that Bristol Palin would be “sexually promiscuous”.

Most of us don’t expect our sons and daughters to misbehave. We teach them what is right, and we hope they listen. But in my rather conservative church, we not only have had several teen pregnancies, but one of our elders confessed to a long-term affair. His wife could have ended up with an HPV — and I guess some here would have blamed her for it for some strange reason I can’t fathom.

I do not believe we should withhold a vaccine from someone because they are sexually promiscuous. I do think people should evaluate THEIR risk of disease vs the risk from the vaccine. That is why I never get flu shots, and why to this point neither of my children have received the HPV vaccine.

But if my daughter went crazy and slept with some guy, and got cancer and died from HPV, I’d probably second-guess my decision not to get her vaccinated. But here we will argue over whether someone died from the vaccine, and we won’t blink an eye at hundreds of sexually active women who die from cancer that would have been prevented had they gotten the vaccine.

[Constitutionalist Conservative]

eugenicist tyranny.

Seriously.... you folks aren't going nearly far enough with your hyperbole.

[sockmonkey]

Truth is, what is meant is "sexually promiscuous."

I know of one of my daughter's friends from junior high school who died of the disease as a young adult.

The Dad was banging all his daughters, and CPS had banned him from contact with his family. The Mom and Daughters moved from here to escape CPS, and have the Dad back in the home. I don't blame the young daughters. I do blame the Dad and Mom for (1)Dad's criminal perversion, and (2) Mom abetting his perversion so they would have Dad around as the family breadwinner.

Sadly, Laura is still DEAD from cervical cancer, and had the vaccine been around, who knows if the parents would have gotten it for their children before the Dad started sexually abusing them. I don't know.

[NoDRodee]

Saw Debate

Bachmann owned Perry
Then Perry said he only received $5,000.00 from maker of vaccine.
Now it turns out he received a lot more then $5000, although not directly to him.

Perry looks a lot like Pawlenty when he couldn't stand up to Romney in the debate

[television is just wrong]

i agree

[Gerish]

Well, from what I can gather (and correct me if I’m wrong) it sounds like she probably had early signs of cervical cancer at age 26 (maybe an abnormal PAP smear) and died at age 31. What happened in between those years no one would know unless it is public somewhere. I am assuming she had an abnormal PAP smear at age 26 and either the lab said it was normal or it was never followed up.

[Marty62]

I don’t know that much about this HPV pathology, just that it’s dangerous and we need to step up our teaching children that premarital sex is dangerous. Maybe all this dicussion will jump start the convos. To bad Perry handled this wrong, we really need to get the kids vaccinatd.

I just heard that Measles is making a come back because parents are opting out. When my kids were born I started getting them shots at 6 months on. When Nixon was Prez he had a program to innoculate Children to stop some of the controlable childhood illnesses.

In San Diego, Navy Corpsman gave the shots at local schools.
I hope we will not have to have that again.

[so_real]

It does appear that Perry misspoke about the dollar amount. I find it a little odd that many of us would discuss if it was an outright lie, a big lie or a little lie, and give Perry a pass, while at the same time holding Bachmann accountable for the absolute accuracy of a third person's statement. It seems a bit hypocritical. I can't say that Bachmann necessarily won that exchange, but I would trust her more with the welfare concerns of children.