Posted on 06/18/2011 12:15:44 AM PDT by balch3
PHOENIX (ABP) – The president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary said June 15 that Southern Baptists need to repent of a “form of homophobia” that keeps gays and lesbians out of their churches.
Albert Mohler responded during his report to the Southern Baptist Convention to a question from Peter Lumpkins, a Southern Baptist blogger, about whether comments attributed to him in a March 24 Christian Science Monitor article were accurate.
Writer Jonathan Merritt, a Southern Baptist minister and well-known social critic, quoted Mohler as saying “We’ve lied about the nature of homosexuality and have practiced what can only be described as a form of homophobia,” and “We’ve used the choice language when it is clear that sexual orientation is a deep inner struggle and not merely a matter of choice.”
Mohler said at the convention “there is no way anyone in fair mindedness can be confused about what I believe about homosexuality,” because he has written more than 200 articles about it, but that “the reality is that we as Christian churches have not done well on this issue.”
“Evangelicals, thankfully, have failed to take the liberal trajectory of lying about homosexuality and its sinfulness,” Mohler said. “We know that the Bible clearly declares – not only in isolated verses but in the totality of its comprehensive presentation – the fact that homosexuality not only is not God’s best for us, as some try to say, but it is sin.”
“But we as evangelicals have a very sad history in dealing with this issue,” he continued. “We have told not the truth, but we have told about half the truth. We’ve told the biblical truth, and that’s important, but we haven’t applied it in the biblical way.”
“We have said to people that homosexuality is just a choice,” Mohler said. “It’s clear that it’s more than a choice. That doesn’t mean it’s any less sinful, but it does mean it’s not something people can just turn on and turn off. We are not a gospel people unless we understand that only the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ gives a homosexual person any hope of release from homosexuality.”
Mohler said churches have not done their job until “there are those who have been trapped in that sin sitting among us.”
Lumpkin said in is blog June 16 that Mohler’s answer was not what he expected to hear and something “I’ll be digesting a long time.”
Mohler has appeared on television programs and been quoted in mainstream media many times over the years in opposition to gay marriage, ordination of gay clergy and other aspects of what he has called attempts to “normalize” homosexual behavior.
As recently as May Mohler described a decision by the Presbyterian Church (USA) Presbytery of the Twin Cities in Minnesota to ordain persons without regard to sexual orientation as “yet another tragedy in the sad history of mainline Protestantism’s race toward total theological disaster.”
In June Mohler objected to use of the term “clobber scriptures” to describe Bible verses that label
Mohler and his opponents are both half right and both half wrong. All sin—whether it expresses itself as homosexuality or something else—is both something deep within the fallen nature that controls fallen man, and something which fallen man chooses to do and abide by.
I’m unclear on what appears to be a contradiction in your post.
On the one hand you’re saying we are “not to tolerate sin in a professed Christian” and “Not to even eat a meal”, but later in your post you say that Mohler is right, that sodomites should be welcomed within the congregation.
Which is it, as one can’t include and welcome sodomy while not tolerating sodomy at the same time ?
1 Corinthians Chapter 5 is part of the Biblical basis for Church discipline. Church discipline, should, of course, lead to denying the Lord’s Table and eventual excommunication for unrepentant sinners. Excommunication is “turning them over to God” where we pray that they will be drawn back to God, be saved and find another congregation. Without this finality, Church discipline would not be efficacious as a chastisement of sin (remember, chastise is not a “bad” word, as we - like God - chastise those we love, since if we did not chastise a person when necessary, we certainly we not care much about them).
As Church discipline has been watered-down or eliminated from so many denominations, they have fallen into apostasy. Inviting sin inside our congregations “leaveneth the whole lump”, in the words of the Apostle Paul. And as the Lord wills, they will return to true Biblical practices.
Of course, many people today all over the world can’t stand the word judge, being “judgemental” is viewed as a despicable quality. This term is invariably followed with accusations or innuendos about being branded another very popular denegrating term - a hypocrite. I see three different common contexts - 1) a public figure’s sins become public, 2) a non-public figure, just a person, insists their sin is not a sin 3) a sin in general is discussed with no particular person being accused. In all these, you can’t deny the sin is a sin. Hypocrisy is when one calls out another person’s undeclared sin - a particular individual - publicly. Privately is the way to go in that case. But if a person declares they are sinning and they also declare that their sin is not a sin, they made it a public issue and forced others to accept or contradict them. If I tell someone that I lied about something - how could I then tell them they have no right to tell me I’m wrong because they must have committed sins in the past themselves !
Towards the end of your post you talk about congregation members who habitually commit sins other than sodomy, for example, those who habitually lust. Of course, any serious sin such as that would be in the same category as sodomy - Church discipline is required. Trouble is, everyone says, “how do we know who’s surfing porn on the web” ? Well, firstly, that’s where a Christian home needs to operate in a Biblical fashion. A husband and wife should be close enough on a daily basis to be confident that no such activity is occurring - do they have “secret” computers - or are they open with each other ? Secondly, will we ever know that every member of every family in a congregation is committing no sins ? No, of course not. And that is precisely where the traditional Reformed perspective - so often criticized - seems to be so accurate: we can not know for a fact that there is zero sin within a congregation.
As far as ministering to the unsaved, from the days of the early Church Christian doctrine has been to spread the Gospel, not withhold it. But spreading the Gospel to the unsaved is done outside the congregation. Those congregants who openly sin and refuse correction are to be put out from the congregation of believers, as the last verse of 1 Corinthians Chapter 5 directs:
“Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.”
There are a number of other Bible verses supporting this idea of excluding those who openly sin from the congregation; I pray that you will search for them so you can be firm in this knowledge.
Please remember also the verse which requires exclusion of the unrepentant sinner from the Lord’s Supper, lest he bring damnation upon himself:
1 Corinthians 11:
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.
Yes, but one of man’s own choosing. God gave man over to such foolishness because man chose not to honor, worship, and love God as creator and king.
Gibberish. Just because it is hard does not mean it is not a choice.
The problem that religious institutions face in the US today is that they have essentially ignorant morons for leaders. They may know ancient Greek and study Origen and Iraneaus but they don't know jack squat about the real world. They have a psych 101 level understanding of human behavior and act like they are scholars. They are not. Mohler's statement here is a picture of unethical incompetence, and he does not even know how ignorant he is. Because he is "ordained" by god, I guess, to make a consummate ass of himself.
The troubling part is, the whole mainline is even worse off. The episkie church is teaching that "abortion is a blessing and our work is not done." Imagine what they think about homosexuals--oh, come to think of it, the president of the piskie divinity school is a homosexual. Makes Mohler look tame by comparison, but he's not.
Most Baptist Churches are Independent. The Leadership of the SBC has been cr@pping on God for years. No different than the RINO Republicans, they are all selling their souls, and our Country with it.
Are you implying the lost should not be allowed in church gatherings? If that were the case there would never be anyone come forward for salvation. If someone did they should be thrown out.
The Corinthian passage was talking about tolerating sin in professing Christians within the church, not about unbelievers coming to the gathering seeking truth. There are other passages in the same letter with instructions on those people.
I think you are misunderstanding Mohler’s point. He is not saying that it isn’t a choice, he is saying that it is more than just a choice. It takes the power of God to turn something like homosexuality around, not the mere choice of men. He isn’t saying that it isn’t a choice whatsoever. Basically, he thinks Evangelicals have portrayed it as something you can just turn on and off, and that is simply not true.
You have to remember that Mohler is an outspoken Calvinist. He has a much higher view of the power of sin than the average Evangelical, as do I. That is probably what lies at the root of these comments here.
Why do the Southern Baptist need to explain something that is so clearly stated in the Bible?
Hath God said........And so it begins.
one needs to differentiate between the left’s & Mohler’s [or anyone else’s] definition of homophobia.
the left: disagreement is phobic & hateful
most others: [many times non]compassionate Biblical stance.
actual phobia: for many, dealing with gays or the hiv+ is miles out of their comfort zone.
a man on tbn recently gave his testimony that although he is a successful minister he was chronically sexually abused & prostituted as a child by an adult male. got married at 17 only to later come to terms with what could be described as his struggle. years later was diagnosed with full blown aids, wasn’t expected to live. his wife thankfully had not been infected. yet now he is delivered of his fault & enjoys a happy marriage to his only wife & has several biological children.
yet another minister wouldn’t let him give his testimony at his church because the congregation/staff isw wouldn’t know how to deal with those seeking help.
us Christians say the local church is supposed to be a hospital for the spiritually wounded. yet many are not reached because of discomfort, spiritual unpreparedness or spiritual immaturity.
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. 11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit. 13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You. Psalm 51
save others, snatching them out of the fire ; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh. Jude 1:23
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived ; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6
I did not say there were no sinners in our church. You must not be a person of faith yourself or you would know that. EVERYONE, even saved people, are still sinners, because we are still human. You know what I said before you made your smart *#& remark. You know what I meant. If you didn’t then I feel sorry for you. The fact he is not in our church any longer is that we are not going to allow anyone we are aware of that is in that life style to openly defy God in our church. If you live that life style and think you are saved, you are sadly mistaken. We are not going to allow a person like that around our children. You do what you want. But your smart *@& remarks don’t draw water. They just come from the mind of a smart @**.
“that is in that life style to openly defy God in our church.”
So even God is powerless to save a homosexual, huh?
I’m glad your church doesn’t allow unrepentant sinners in its congregation. But it’s funny that we will send missionaries all over the world to preach the Gospel and then toss people out of our own church for being sinners.
BTW if they toss you out for your anger, you can come to our church. We don’t have litmus tests. We even allow non-believers to come to church.
An old song Chorus comes to mind.
Take it to the Cross and leave it there.
Did you read the link you posted? It says the exact opposite:
“When the resolution was amended to say that it was “not to be construed as support for amnesty for any undocumented immigrant,” it passed by a wide margin with a show of raised ballots.”
You are right; Dr. Mohler is — now was — in the same frame of thought as the late Dr. W.A. Criswell of First Baptist, Dallas, once the larges of the Southern Baptist churches.
Southern Baptists have another problem they have created themselves — they have essentially thrown out the old hymns in their services for the most part and use “modern” “choruses”.
The point though is that the homosexual community, with its wealth for political contributions, wants to change the church, not change itself. I suppose Dr. Mohler understands the difference.
Think about how our Lord Jesus Christ confronted sinners. The woman caught in adultery comes to mind. He said he did not condemn her but that she should go and "sin no more". We should recognize that sin is sin and the sin of homosexual behavior is no worse in God's eyes than heterosexual behavior outside of marriage. Is gay sex worse than murder? Is gay sex worse than stealth? ALL sin is what causes us to miss the mark of God's perfection and condemns us to eternity separated from him. Without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross in our place, we would all be just as bound for hell as the worst sinner in the world. No sin is beyond the forgiveness of God. No sinner is beyond the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
Now, I certainly don't think Jesus, when he told the prostitute he did not condemn her, meant that she should be able to continue in her sin and sit among other Christians as if sin didn't matter to God. We are all commanded to flee from immorality and those among us who refuse to repent and cease the wrongful behavior are to be dealt with in a loving but firm way spelled out in Scripture. So should ALL sinners be welcomed into the church of Christ? Well, yeah, because we all are sinners in need of the healer of our souls. But should Christians look the other way and ignore gross sin among the congregation? No. The leaders of the church have a responsibility to direct and guide the members into what is acceptable living as representatives of the Lord. We are to love people to the Lord and, once they come to him in repentant faith, we should help every person to live in obedience to God so that they as well as the community of Christ have victory over sin and bring glory to God in all that they do.
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