Posted on 03/28/2011 11:12:57 AM PDT by Clairity
By the way, your comparison of the Christian interpretation of the beast and what the Muslims say about the Mahdi was excellent.
“The whole world is to be tested, no on will escape it......but that’s not all He says, is it? Christ specifically says that these Christians (and they are Christians he is addressing), will be kept from the hour. How do you reconcile that?”
Perhaps they will all die before that time? Perhaps they will be supernaturally protected, as the Elect are protected from the locusts? Perhaps these are the seed of the woman that are taken into the wilderness? I don’t have all the answers, so I can’t necessarily reconcile everything, but I’m not going to go around spreading a clearly false and probably dangerous idea just based on one verse that could have many different fulfillments. Often, we can’t know what all the details of a prophecy mean before it occurs, even if Christians can understand much of it.
Further, how do you reconcile Christ’s analogy about the time of Noah in Luke 17:26?
I don’t see anything to reconcile. The passage in Luke, in context, is speaking of the Second Coming, which will come at a time unexpected by the world. We know from other passages that the 1st resurrection happens at this time, and after that living saints be caught up to meet him. Then, the rest of the world will face the day of wrath. This isn’t a pre-tribulation or mid-tribulation event, since Jesus doesn’t return until the end.
“if it is to believed that Christ will not keep some from the hour of testing.”
Yes, but the belief that Christians will be taken up to Christ at the time specified is not incompatible with the statement that he will keep some from the hour of testing. For the life of me, I cannot figure out what the point we be of all the detailed warnings and prophecies of the end-times are, if we are all going to be raptured away before it happens. The unfaithful are not going to heed those prophecies, and the faithful won’t need them, so why would they be written at all if that scenario is true?
“I Thessalonians 4:16 says “the trumpet” not the “last trumpet” - and how do you know they are not different?”
Simple. Christ only returns once, and so the trumpet that is sounding in that verse is the same one that sounds in every verse that talks about his one: the last trumpet, or the seventh trumpet.
“By the way, your comparison of the Christian interpretation of the beast and what the Muslims say about the Mahdi was excellent.”
Thanks. There is a lot more info about the Mahdi, the Isa, and the Dajjal out there. Not all of it matches up with the Christian pattern, but the big parts sure do seem to coincide.
“well good for you but to the muzzies The Mahdi is the Messiah.”
That’s tricky, because the Mahdi is not quite the same as the Messiah, in Judeo-Christian traditions. One could argue that the Isa is their Messiah, though they say he will proclaim that he is not the Son of God. The Mahdi is a separate figure that appears around the same time frame. At least that’s the Shia viewpoint. Some Muslims believe the Mahdi and Isa are one and the same.
Once the war begins it will be real dumb for Syrians remaining in Damascus, unless the minority of diehard Syrian Alawites still supporting Bashar al-Assad, desires a quick trip to their moon god -- since Damascus is going to be vaporized.
In terms of Israel, Never Again means, preemptively removing genocidal missile threats to 'finish the Holocaust' from either Iranian, Syrian, or the Muslim Brotherhood's Egyptian skies.
That's an important question, and I think Boogieman's answer is a good one, but there's another that is, I think, quite definitive, and it is this:
There is only one resurrection of the dead in Christ, so, since both of the following passages speak of that same resurrection, they must also be speaking of the same trumpet.
Behold, I show you a secret thing, We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall blow, and the dead shall be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
— I Corinthians 15:51-52For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, and with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then shall we which live and remain, be caught up with them also in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
— I Thessalonians 4:16-17
I would add just this: don't accept this on my say so. Be a Berean and study the matter; call on the Spirit of Truth to reveal it to you out of The Word of God. If you can't "see" it for yourself in there; don't buy it.
Appreciate the response. Really, and I am not trying to be argumentative. I want to discern the truth correctly. Here is where have to take issue with what you said - there is not conclusive evidence from scripture that your conjecture that this one trumpet is the only trumpet (and that the one trumpet is the Resurrection of the dead) being that exact same trumpet! Furthermore, the bible speaks of the dead rising first, and then others who are alive being delivered, does it not? So how can you be so sure this is all tied up with the bow you put upon it?
But, I don't think you produced any solid scriptural evidence that says that a trumpet mentioned in the same as the final trumpet. You sort of leap over to that, and then write "Q.E.D" on the black board.
1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 mention trumpets as sounding God's power to raise the dead. Trumpets are also mentioned throughout the bible (1 Chronicles 13:8, Joshua 6:4, Numbers 10:2, 1 Corinthians 14:8, Numbers 10:2, Numbers 10:5-6, Numbers 10:7, Psalms 81:3, 2 Chronicles 5:13, 2 Kings 11:14, 2 Kings 9:13, Leviticus 23:24, Numbers 29:1, Exodus 19:16, Exodus 20:18, Isaiah 58:1, Hosea 8:1, Joel 2:1) - and even more.
Revelation mentions seven trumpets in Revelation 8:2 and trumpets by three angels in 8:13. God uses trumpets all through the bible, but why if He blasts a trumpet in an event such as the Rapture does that have to be the "final" trumpet?" I ask this will all sincerity and no sarcasm. I really would like to know if you know.
Further, I don't get the argument that Christ can't snatch His people away from the earth before He would physically return to do battle with the Antichrist and his armies and defeat them. Did Christ have to be incarnated on the earth before God took Elijah to heaven while he was still alive? Nope. He did it just fine. What about Enoch? Moreover, did Christ have to re-return to take Paul to 3rd heaven? Nope, God did that just fine too.
I am serious - I don't get it. Every argument I have ever heard about the Rapture coming after (or during) the Tribulation has come down with some sort of sanctimonious baggage that chastises people for believing that God will deliver them from testing, because........? Well, God 'wants' you to suffer and be tested during the Tribulation, even though it is very clear in Revelation 3: 7-10 that someone alive (who He names) are to be kept from the testing:
Revelation 3:7-13 7 "And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this: 8 'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 'Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie; I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. 10 'Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
So, if that doesn't mean what He said, then what does it mean? I am serious - this is a HUGE point that I have seen people gloss over and ignore time and time again - and I don't get it. Christ even speaks of opening and shutting doors that only He controls. It seems to be that people who argue this point away sort of get some bizarre satisfaction of telling people "Well, you are not escaping anything, you got it wrong, and I am happy to tell you the bad news."
That's fine with me if it is scriptural and correct and without question clearly what the bible says, but it isn't!
I was reading the Book of Numbers about a week ago, and got to the point where the Jews were berating Moses for meat while in the desert. God told Moses he would give them meat, and Moses protested that it was impossible.
"Numbers 11:23 The LORD answered Moses, "Is the LORD's arm too short?
That is sort of the answer to the notion that Christ cannot take out His people before the time testing and before He physically returns to defeat the Antichrist and establish his 1,000 reign in Jerusalem.
I totally respect where you’re coming from, and greatly appreciate your heart in wanting to see it work out in the pages of scripture before you buy in. That is wisdom, and cannot be faulted as fleshly argumentation.
First, let me expressly disclaim that “the last trumpet” is the only trumpet; manifestly it is not. Even if we were to limit ourselves to the book of Revelation, we would be forced to acknowledge as much. As you well note, there are MANY trumpets referenced throughout scripture.
Second, I would correct you where you said “1 Corinthians 15:52 and 1 Thessalonians 4:16 mention trumpets as sounding God’s power to raise the dead.” The trumpets in those two verses do not sound God’s POWER to raise the dead; they sound His actual raising of the dead; specifically the dead who died in Christ. Those two trumpets do not announce a capability; they announce an actual event.
Now, the claim that those two trumpets are the same trumpet; that “the last trumpet” of I Cor. 15:52 is the same trumpet as “the trumpet of God” in I Thess. 4:16, arises from there being only one time when the dead in Christ are raised. We do see another resurrection of the UNsaved unto judgment, when the sea gives up the dead that are in it, but there is only ONE resurrection of the saved.
Therefore, since both the I Cor. 15 passage, and the I Thess. 4 passage speak of this one-and-only resurrection of the redeemed, then it simply must be the case that the trumpet blasts mentioned in both passages are the sounding of one and the same trumpet.
Thus, we begin with the one-and-only resurrection of the dead in Christ, and that leads us to conclude that the accompanying trumpets must necessarily be one and the same.
Can we say that we agree as to at least this?
Therefore, since both the I Cor. 15 passage, and the I Thess. 4 passage speak of this one-and-only resurrection of the redeemed...
I still think you are making leaps that these are the same event. I don't buy your argument either about how a trumpet is an actual act of Power vs. the signaling of a act of God's power. Who and what taught you how to dissect God's power this way? I certainly don't know. I do know God can bring things into being just by speaking (Genesis), but I don't read in scripture what you claim. You didn't even address the Revelation verses either? Why?
Look at this verse:
10and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
1 Thessalonians 1:10 (emphasis mine).
Coming wrath. So, how could the saints be proclaiming they were saved from the "coming wrath" if they endured the Tribulation? These are distinct and different from the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7. Yes? How do you apply this distinction to a post Tribulation theory? By the way, mine is just theory also of course.
Revelation reads a time line of events. The beginning is like a table of contents for this book. So, the saints are praising God for saving and rewarding them in Chapter 7 of Revelation, and the trumpets sound between Revelation 8:5 through Revelation 11:19. Are these trumpets raising the dead, or are they pouring out in the first 3.5 years of the Tribulation?
The way I read it (and again, my opinion), I still see 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 as saying those still alive are taken to be with God in the air. Moreover, doesn't 2 Peter 2:4-9 tell us that God knows how to rescue those from trials? I know He doesn't always do so - if that were the case I wouldn't be reading about Christians being slaughtered in Egypt, Turkey, and other places on a weekly basis. But, in the context of such a grand event as the Tribulation, then clearly 1 Peter is giving us a promise and hope for....what? To have to endure the Tribulation?
I know we can probably go round and round with this. I look forward to your points, and I am no expert on anything, believe me!
I am glad we have Him together. What a gift that is.
You make a good observation. I can see at least 4 points of correlations between 3 sets of verses. There is the return of Christ, the trumpet, and resurrection of the dead, and the “rapture” (I kind of hate to use that without quotes, because it’s a term that is so malleable it’s not very exact).
In addition, a couple of the verses have the correlation of the voice of the archangel as well. This is very convincing evidence to me, in fact I think it is more convincing Scriptural evidence than for some ideas which are more universally accepted.
I don't know that scripture anywhere speaks of multiple resurrections of the dead in Christ. Certainly many have been raised in various individual miracles (Lazarus, etc), but in regard to a mass resurrection of all the dead in Christ, that event is everywhere referred to in the singular, not the plural.
If you know of passages that speak of multiple resurrections of those who have died in Christ Jesus, by all means show me; I can't think of any.
That said, I want to be careful to note that scripture does speak of a separate resurrection of the dead NOT in Christ. That distinction must be kept clearly in view so that these different resurrections don't get confused with one another.
I don't buy your argument either about how a trumpet is an actual act of Power vs. the signaling of a act of God's power.
It's a secondary point, and we may be "talking past" one another. My intent is to clarify that I don't think the SOUND of the trumpet is a manifestation of God's power. As elsewhere in scripture (walls of Jericho, and others), manifestations of the power of God were ACCOMPANIED BY trumpet blasts, or shouts, or other sounds, but — except where God SPEAKS — the sounds themselves are not portrayed as being the actual power of God.
So, at the resurrection of the dead in Christ it is not the sound of the trumpet that raises them, but the same power that raised Christ, which demonstration of power was, at the tomb, accompanied not by a trumpet, but by an earthquake.
I suppose that it can be convincingly argued that the earthquake was a byproduct of God's exercise of His power in raising Christ from the dead, but I wouldn't say that the quake itself was God's actual power. In the same way, I don't say that the sound of the trumpet is God's actual power.
On the other hand, I can agree that I may be making a distinction without a difference because, as we see in Revelation, there are angles blowing trumpets concurrent with the release of God's power in judgement upon the earth, and whether the sound is actually the power of God, or not will really be immaterial to the inhabitants of Earth, in that hour.
You didn't even address the Revelation verses either? Why?
Because I really want to put the brakes on and just follow this through one step at a time. You make many points, and raise several related questions, but I think it wise to pave the way to an answer by laying down one stone at a time, so that we can proceed from agreement to agreement. It may be quicker to tackle everything all at once, but that method also makes it less clear how the series of scriptural claims builds from the first claim to the final conclusion, and that is something that really must not be obscured else the entire point of this discussion is moot.
Still, I will make a clarification that helped me overcome the question of the Saints being rescued "from the coming wrath."
In Revelation, there are three series of chronological events that are associated with specific symbols: Seals that are broken, Trumpets that are sounded, and Bowls that are poured out.
After the breaking of the seven Seals, and the sounding of the seven Trumpets, but before the outpouring of the seven Bowls, John records this event:
And I saw as it were a glassy sea, mingled with fire, and them that had gotten victory of the beast, and of his image, and of his mark, and of the number of his name, stand at the glassy sea, having the harps of God,And they sang the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying,
Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty:
just and true are thy ways, King of Saints.
Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify
thy name! for thou only art holy, and all nations shall
come and worship before thee: for thy judgments are made manifest.
— Revelation 15:2 - 4
The words of this "Song of Moses" make clear that the Seals and Trumpets that came before in the Revelation chronology were "judgements." By contrast, the Bowls are spoken of explicitly as being full of God's "wrath."
And therefore four beasts gave unto the seven Angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God which lived for evermore.
— Revelation 15:7And I heard a great voice out of the Temple, saying to the seven Angels, Go your ways, and pour out the seven vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
— Revelation 16:1
Since there is this distinction between the Seal and Trumpet "judgements," and the Bowls of "wrath," if at the Seventh Trumpet the dead in Christ rise, followed immediately by the rapture of "we who are alive and remain," then Jesus does, indeed, rescue us "from the coming wrath" just as he promises in I Thess. 1:10, and I Thess. 5:9.
And to look for his son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus which delivereth us from that wrath to come.
— I Thess. 1:10For God hath not appointed us unto wrath, but to obtain salvation by the means of our Lord Jesus Christ.
— I Thess. 5:9
I realize that all of this is biting off quite a bit, so let's focus just on the first point. Let's work at finding agreement as to the mass resurrection of the dead in Christ being a one-time event. If we can do that, then we can advance to how that relates to the sounding of trumpets.
I'm sorry if you think I was perhaps getting ahead of myself, I thought it was very clear, since most of the relevant verses had already been posted and we were just commenting on them at that point. I'll break it down explicitly for you if you like, though:
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
“51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
First, “we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”. Sleep in this context is a euphemism for those who have died and not undergone a bodily resurrection, this is used in this way several times in the New Testament, so I don't think I need to establish the proof of that. This verse is saying, not all believers will die, but all will be changed. In the context of the following verses, the change being spoken of is apparent, being made incorruptible, and immortal, so we are speaking of the resurrection of the faithful.
“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:”... all three of these things are related to each other, as if they are synonymous. This only makes sense in terms of marking a certain point in time, and the use of “moment” and “twinkling of an eye” denote this is a specific, short period of time, not a long, extended event. The reference to the “last trump” is also to a specific event which we can find detailed in Revelation. You are correct that there are many mentions of trumpets in the Scriptures, but the last trump is a very specific reference, surely included so that we could understand exactly which trumpet is being referred to.
“for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
Now we get to the heart of the matter, the sequence of events that is being prophesied. The trumpet is mentioned a second time, reinforcing that the following events are to occur at the time of the last trumpet, and no other. At this time, “the dead shall be raised incorruptible”, which can only refer to the 1st resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous, since the more general 2nd resurrection will not be a resurrection to immortality, but a resurrection to judgment, after which those judged and found wanting will be cast into the lake of fire. “We shall be changed”: as referred to in the previous verse, both the dead who have been resurrected, and those believers still living, will all be changed, and given their immortality at this time.
So, this verse refers to a specific moment, and we can identify 3 “markers” or points of reference to help us identify this time. 1st, the last trumpet, 2nd the resurrection of the righteous, and 3rd, the transformation or change of the resurrected and the living righteous into their glorified, immortal forms.
In fact, it is very helpful to go back and read the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 15, because the whole thing deals very specifically with the topic of the resurrection of the righteous, and gives a lot more details than these few verses. It is very clear and correlates perfectly with what we learn in Revelation about the same matters.
The next key set of verses is 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17:
“13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
This set of verses is parallel to the others, but gives some more details. Verse 13 explains the reason why we are being told the information, so that we will not ignorant and sorrowful about those who sleep, or the righteous dead. Next, we learn that these dead will return with Christ: “even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him”. This is important, because it gives us the first reference to a specific event we can identify, namely the Second Coming. The next verse is more specific, saying: “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:”. Clearly we are dealing with the Second Coming, and not some other event, since God is descending from heaven, and we see other events which are associated with that as well: a shout, the voice of the archangel, the trump of God, and the resurrection of the righteous. So, we have 2 of the same “markers” to correlate with the previous set of verses, and two additional “markers”, the shout/voice of the archangel, and the Second coming of Christ. I group the shout/voice together, because there is some controversy amongst scholars as to whether Christ is shouting WITH the voice of the archangel, or whether He is shouting, and the voice of Michael is heard at this time as well. Either way, they are another point of correlation to consider. Next, we learn: “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” This matches up with another “marker” from the previous set of verses: the living believers will be changed and given their immortality at this time, since they will now be with the Lord forever.
So far, we have several sets of correlation to establish these verses are talking about the same event: a trumpet, called in one the “last trump”, and in the other “the trump of God”, the resurrection of the righteous, and the transformation of believers into their immortal bodies. Two additional markers which appear in the second set of verses are the Second coming, and the shout/voice of the Archangel.
Now, the final sets of verses which illuminate these matters occur in Revelation. Revelation is a very tricky book to interpret, but it is pretty clear on these matters. However, the chronology of Revelation must be understood in order to avoid confusion. Revelation is not a purely sequential prophesy, but rather there are several overlapping narratives which can cover the same events from different perspectives, or in different styles of writing. So, we can actually see more than one view of these events by looking in the correct place in several of the narratives of Revelation.
The first key place for us to look is in Revelation 8-10, which you noted mentions the Seven Trumpets. The first six of these are judgments of God, which afflict the world. These aren't key to this discussion, so let's look at the end of the sequence. to Rev 10:5-7 to see what the Seventh Trumpet is, and whether this matches up with the “last trump” or “trump of God” mentioned in the other sets of verses:
“5 The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the land raised up his hand[c] to heaven 6 and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there should be delay no longer, 7 but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.”
Now, this is interesting, because the previous 6 trumpets and their associated judgments are detailed, but exact details of the 7th trumpet is not given here. However, we are told, accompanied by an oath to God as if to reinforce it, that when the 7th trumpet is about to sound, the mystery of God, which was declared to the prophets, would be finished. This is very important, because it means that the 7th trumpet really must be the “last trump”, since any other trumpet that is spoken of in prophecy must proceed this one!
Now, after this, we don't get more specific details on the 7th trumpet, but rather we have the story of the little book and then, John is told to prophesy about “many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings.” (verse 11), which marks a shift in the narrative of Revelation, as the next chapters become a “prophecy within a prophecy”, and we will have to jump ahead in Revelation to find the next reference to the events we are looking for.
In Revelation 19, we see the preparations for the marriage feast of the Lamb in heaven, and then in verses 11-16, we see the appearance of the glorified Christ, identified easily, because his name is written on his thigh: “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.” The next verses, 17-21, detail the Second Coming, and the battle of Armageddon, where the Beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies make war with Christ. This happens on earth, so we must be talking about the Second coming, as Christ has descended to earth.
The narrative continues in Chapter 20, with the devil being sealed in the bottomless pit, and then we get to these key verses:
“4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.”
Now, this is key, because it is another of our “markers”, the resurrection of the righteous. We see that it immediately follows the Second coming, another of our “markers”, we are told these are given thrones and that the second death, which we will see shortly, will have no power over them, so they have been given immortality, a third “marker” which refers to the others sets of verses.
After this, we are told of the war following the millennial reign, followed by the White Throne judgment in verses 11-14. Here, the dead, “small and great” are standing before God to receive judgment, but we know that the dead in Christ have already been raised in the 1st resurrection and this judgment has no power over them. Therefore, this can only be the resurrection of damnation that is spoken of by Jesus in John 5:29.
Now, I have to thank you for pressing me on this question, because I believe in reviewing this material again, I've found the answer to your question regarding the promise to keep some from the “hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”
Many read those verses as a promise to spare some from the tribulation which is the focus of Revelation, and that seems an obvious reading. However, there is an alternate reading of the verse, which I believe, fits with the sequence of events we see in all these other accounts. If you look up the word “testing” in that verse, you will see it is:
“1383. dokimion dok-im’-ee-on neuter of a presumed derivative of 1382; a testing; by implication, trustworthiness:—trial, trying.”
The root of which is:
“1382. dokime dok-ee-may’ from the same as 1384; test (abstractly or concretely); by implication, trustiness:—experience(-riment), proof, trial.”
While the word translated as tribulation is:
“2347. thlipsis thlip’-sis from 2346; pressure (literally or figuratively):—afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.”
So, when you look at the Greek, it's clear that the words have a significant difference in meaning. The tribulation is associated with affliction, anguish, persecution, and trouble, while testing is associated with a trial, a test of truthfulness. This meaning of “testing” connotes more of the sense of a judicial trial or hearing, rather than the other meaning of trial in English, which can be similar to that of a tribulation.
So, I believe that what these people are promised to be spared from is the same thing that is promised in Rev 20:6, the trial which leads to the second death, specifically the White Throne judgment which follows the resurrection of damnation. This makes perfect sense to me, since we are told that the righteous are already resurrected before this in a separate resurrection, and they will actually sit in judgment along with Christ, so of course they are spared from the trial, or testing. One cannot be a judge and a defendant at the same time.
Now, let me answer one other question you put forth:
“Further, I don't get the argument that Christ can't snatch His people away from the earth before He would physically return to do battle with the Antichrist and his armies and defeat them. Did Christ have to be incarnated on the earth before God took Elijah to heaven while he was still alive? Nope. He did it just fine. What about Enoch? Moreover, did Christ have to re-return to take Paul to 3rd heaven? Nope, God did that just fine too.”
Of course Christ can, I don't think I've ever heard anyone argue that He can't. However, it's very weak to argue from speculation based on a mere possibility. Especially when that speculation seems to directly contradict prophecies which give us specific details on the matter. I don't think there is any verse that says Christ won't raise anyone to heaven and immortality prior to the general resurrection of the righteous, but there are specific verses that tell us that the living believers at that time must wait until after the 1st resurrection to receive their immortality, and the 1st resurrection happens at the time of the Second Coming. Perhaps Christ will choose to gather a few to Him prior to that, but for most of us, we should not assume such an event should happen, since it is not what has been promised to us. Such a thing would probably have to be a special act of God, like when he took up Enoch or Elijah, and not something to be generally expected.
15 And the seventh Angel blew the trumpet, and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of the world are our Lord’s, and his Christ’s, and he shall reign for evermore.
16 Then the four and twenty Elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces and worshipped God.
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, Lord God Almighty,
Which art, and which wast, and which art
to come: for thou hast received thy great might, and
hast obtained thy kingdom.
18 And the Gentiles were angry, and thy wrath is come...
— Revelation 11:15-18a
I think it important to pull this into the discussion because, like Revelation 15:4, 15:7, and 16:1 it expressly declares that, after the events heralded by the Seventh Trumpet, "they wrath is come." This reinforces that the prior events (Seals and Trumpets) were "judgement" as declared in Rev. 15:4, whereas what is coming (the Seven Bowls) will be "wrath" (ref. Rev. 15:7, 16:1).
I think your discussion of trial v. tribulation really helps clarify that the comments to the church at Philadelphia refer to something different than the saints being rescued from wrath, and not being appointed unto wrath (ref. I Thess. 1:10, 5:9). That is really helpful to parse the language so carefully, because it eliminates possible confusion that might exist if the Rev. 3 passage were construed to refer to the same thing as the two I Thessalonian references.
Sorry I forgot to ping you to my earlier reply:
Post 93
Hope this is all as enjoyable for you as it is for me. I like being forced to go back to The Book and challenge what I think. I always get something new out of the effort.
Lastly, let me throw this in as a sort of "bonus." I know there are umpteen ways to divvy up the book of Revelation, but I've found this one to be helpful as it enables a "straight read" of the five-part chronology by skipping over the five "parenthetical" parts. Exact points where these parts begin and end may be arguable, such as which verse ends the fifth Parenthetical, and which one begins the conclusion, but overall I find it to be a helpful way of dividing the book for constructive study. I present it as a suggestion.
Revelation: A Structure Introduction: Ch 1 Letters: Ch 2 - 3 Chronological: Ch 4 - 6 Parenthetical: Ch 7 Chronological Ch 8 & 9 [8:13 - 3 Woes = Trumpets 5, 6, and 7] Parenthetical: 10:1 - 11:13 Chronological 11:14 - 19 [3rd Woe / Seventh Trumpet] Parenthetical: Ch 12 - 13 Chronological Ch 14 - 16 Parenthetical: Ch 17 - 18 Chronological Ch 19 - 21:8 Parenthetical: 21:9 - 22:6 Conclusion: 22:7 - 22:21
Wrong! USA’s “Army” it’s way much BIGGER and much POWERFUL than China’s “Army.” USA’s or the “Company’s” Army are everywhere and anywhere established in land or sea all around the World. We are the one clearing out for the Elite’s (Navy’s) Leader. Once everything is controlled and well established then, the Beast will come out to light and proclaim that he is the true Christ (Messiah)and a lot of people will believe in him. I don’t blame my country or condemn him because all this started after England (Great Britain) invading us (And still, I don’t blame England since we all know who that believes in Jesus, knows that the Evil is the one behind all this.). And then, we fast covered it up with “Hitler’s massacre” because we passed Hitler’s record 600 times before him (Hitler)(HUGE DISTRACTION). Can’t you see everyone dies who truly repents. Like Abraham Lincoln, John F. Kennedy, Martin Luther King Jr, John Lennon, Micheal Jackson, Princess Diana and much more all around the World. See our first “Naval Flag” says who truly we are. Again, can’t you see we are... the little Horn!
Geez, did you even READ my post?
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