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Report Offers Surprises on Muslims’ Growth (We Are Doomed)
New York Times ^ | January 27, 2011 | Laurie Goodstein

Posted on 01/26/2011 10:05:07 PM PST by lbryce

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To: PghBaldy

The problem with the Pew is that they are covering up the fact that Muslims are the European equivalent of the illegal immigrants crossing the border in the United States. A great deal of the Islamic immigrant populations are heavily on welfare, and living in slums of their own, suggesting that they are not all that super-educated as the report suggests. While they try and mention education, one thing that sticks out to anyone to which politics “priviliges” Muslims being no exception, is that now the Muslims know that they can get what they want.

“Eventually, and in a relatively short period of time, the violence and intimidation will increase to the point that these countries will be effectively Muslim, even if they aren’t a majority.”

It happened in the Middle Eastern nations in the Middle Ages, and it is not entirely impossible in Europe, either. Put in mind that a great deal of the European population is aging, and Muslim youth constitute a disproportionate number of those under 18, the newborns, and the young, they can take a larger chunk of the population at a faster rate than expected, even going back to the claim that they are growing. Last time I heard, West Europe had an “aging crisis” and depopulation issues.


21 posted on 01/26/2011 11:13:43 PM PST by Morpheus2009 ("God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein)
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To: James C. Bennett

Not too much today. They are working on interception in different formats, but not too much works today. Tomorrow is a new day.

You know? I sit here and marvel at my Macintosh every day. Its a beautiful machine. But, know what? In 6 months it basically obsolete. They will have a new machine sitting in that price slot which is twice as fast or has twice the goodies. Its interesting, They can create a idea, do the r$d, produce it, distribute it and make it obsolete in 6 months. Electronics is just that interesting.
Theoretical moves even faster.

My greatest fear is Obama and the people who put him into power. Thats what is going to destroy us. Its the detractors who want to destroy America, internally.


22 posted on 01/26/2011 11:13:43 PM PST by himno hero
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To: Morpheus2009

Good points.


23 posted on 01/26/2011 11:17:10 PM PST by PghBaldy (Like the Ft Hood Killer, James Earl Ray was just stressed when he killed MLK Jr.)
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To: himno hero
You just reminded me.... The numerous scientific claims made by the Arab/Muslim world were merely the usurpation of creativity, invention co-opted by Muslim invaders from the lands they conquered.

The best example of this is the concept of the base 10 numbering system adopted world-wide, erroneously referred to as Arabic numbers/numerals, originally conceived in India, claimed, re-branded as their own during rule of the sub-continent.

24 posted on 01/26/2011 11:25:24 PM PST by lbryce
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To: James C. Bennett

“Technology may advance, but a 1950s-technology nuke cannot be improved upon by a 2030s-era bomb. “

I hope we get antimatter bombs by then, or perhaps some ability to drop junk out of orbit as man-made meteorites.

But joking aside, there is a significant difference between the 1950s nukes and the 21st century: accuracy. Now nukes are super-accurate due to powerful computing and satellite power to pinpoint targets.

I am also not an expert on past history but bunker-busters pretty much give a whole different kind of potential to nukes, given that a nuke could embed itself into a target and then detonate, making it more powerful than before against an underground target. (Let’s say somebody else has something similar to Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado).


25 posted on 01/26/2011 11:25:29 PM PST by Morpheus2009 ("God doesn't play dice" - Albert Einstein)
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To: lbryce

You might enjoy this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IstZSgniH8
In there they make some powerful references to the purposes of the raids. It wasn’t about spreading religion , their religion of “peace”, nope, it was about plundering productive people. Destroying lives. killing innocents and raping the women. Stealing the wealth for personal consumption.


26 posted on 01/26/2011 11:35:06 PM PST by himno hero
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To: lbryce
All we have to do is STOP fueling the fire.

Let me ask, when did any of us last meet a Muslim farmer?

27 posted on 01/26/2011 11:39:01 PM PST by Brass Lamp
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To: lonestar

He whose name can’t be mentioned was illiterate.

You mean Moo Ham id?


28 posted on 01/26/2011 11:42:08 PM PST by jessduntno ("'How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think." - Adolph Hitler)
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To: himno hero
Thank you very much. This is a real eye-opener. The world needs the emphatic edification this video provides that I'm afraid will never get to penetrate the sense in which it has its proverbial head up you know where.

The more things change the more they remain the same, Islam hasn't as much changed a single iota from the moment it first spawned from Satan's very bowels. .

29 posted on 01/27/2011 12:04:22 AM PST by lbryce
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To: lbryce

So what they are saying is that Muslims are growing at twice the rate of everyone else, but as they come west, they will assimilate?

This is what the left believes. But we see that is not so. They are not assimilating, they are conquering. It is their basic philosophy. As usual, the failure to understand the root differences between Christianity and every other religion is the left’s major Achilles Heel.


30 posted on 01/27/2011 12:20:00 AM PST by I still care (I miss my friends, bagels, and the NYC skyline - but not the taxes. I love the South.)
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To: lbryce
In 1000 ad. The Muslim world was far far ahead of Europe in medicine mathematics and engineering.- and in all areas of knowledge as a matter of fact.

Most people are unaware of how backwards Europe was until coming into contact with the world of Islam during the crusades.

For example Charlemagne, the first Holy Roman emperor, was able to speak an early version of German, Latin, and some Arabic, but was unable to read or write in any language.

He could barely sign his own name.

31 posted on 01/27/2011 12:41:43 AM PST by jd777
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To: goodnesswins
Yep! No problem...If Stink says it, it must be true.

Of course the low percentages that Stink is using resemble the same kinds of crap that we see all the time saying that there are only 12-15 million illegal aliens in the U.S. sponging off of us...

Yep! No problemo...So to speak...

32 posted on 01/27/2011 12:46:02 AM PST by SuperLuminal (Where is another agitator for republicanism like Sam Adams when we need him?)
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: goodnesswins
Our only hope is that they destroy THEMSELVES before they destroy us....

At what point do they reach critical mass and start lopping each others' heads off?

34 posted on 01/27/2011 12:53:42 AM PST by Redcloak (What's your zombie plan?)
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To: goodnesswins
Our only hope is that they destroy THEMSELVES before they destroy us....

They do seem to enjoy killing each other almost as much as they enjoy killing infidels and Jews. So maybe.....

35 posted on 01/27/2011 12:54:36 AM PST by Rummyfan (Iraq: it's not about Iraq anymore, it's about the USA!)
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To: lbryce

“O ye off little faith!” “Due to modern thermonuclear technology, those numbers are subject to change without prior notice.”


36 posted on 01/27/2011 1:20:34 AM PST by sheik yerbouty ( Make America and the world a jihad free zone!)
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To: Rummyfan
Sunni comprise 85% of the Muslim population, Shi'te the rest. The hatred, enmity they have for each other knows no bounds, as expressed by the Sunni contention that, I know you'll find this hard to believe, Shi'ite are worse than Jews.

This is the basis that pits Iran, which is Shi'ite, as religious adversary to the Sunni-based Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia. The conflict arises out of the divergence among Muhammad's grandsons, exacerbated by the fact that Muhammad had no sons as heir, only daughters, have been killing each other from nearly Day One.

37 posted on 01/27/2011 1:25:32 AM PST by lbryce
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To: lbryce
I don't find hard to believe what you said on the contrary, if you read this....

Imam Mahdi The Shia Version - Messiah Dajjal Al Mashih???

Rabi' al-awwal 12, 1431 A.H, Friday February 26, 2010

What do we know about Dajjal?

Let's examine the truth of the Hadith from the Ahlus Sunnah brought to us by our Prophet SAW that Dajjal will appear:

Our Prophet SAW had told us in a Hadith that Allah SWT will guarantee victory to the Islamic ummah during the war with Dajjal and the Islamic ummah will kill him and his ‘shia’ (followers); When the followers of Dajjal hide behind a tree or rock, the tree and rock will say to the Muslims: "There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him." (Riwayah Imam Ahmad in al-Musnad). This Hadith uses the word 'shia' in describing the followers of Dajjal.

“Dajjal will be followed by 70,000 Jews from Isfahan, they will wear (robes) al-Tayalisah (Persian shawls – (today's Shia)) which are seamless.” [refer Saheeh Muslim]

Without us realizing the city of Isfahan is a Jewish city in Iran today which is also the center of nuclear activities for the state of Iran and also a center for investigation of the dangerous weapons belonging to Iran, which according to Israel's firm belief itself, Iran shall be successful in completing its nuclear activities without much problems. This proves that the forces of Dajjal are in the process of being prepared by the Persians who are the prospective followers of Dajjal, in order to greet the appearance of Dajjal. Try to understand the tasks of Dajjal based on the Shia Hadith explanations included at the end of this article. Happy investigating and studying the tasks of the Bani Israel along with their brothers from the offsprings of the Bani Ishaq bin Ibrahim AS i.e. Shia Persians in Iran.

SHIA MAHDI IS DAJJAL THE MESSIAH

The Shia is in the process of awaiting the appearance of al-Qaim or the 12th Imam or Imam Mahdi who have been hiding twice in the hole of Sardab in Sammara’. The following evidences have proven that the one who will be filling up the post of the 12th Imam is no other than Dajjal, based on the information from the religion of Shia itself (the hadiths and literary works associated as the words of their Imams [a.s.]). The Ahlus Sunnah must always be alert and careful and keep in their mind that the Shias are the followers and forces of Dajjal who will appear sooner or later.

It should be remembered that the Mahdi believed by the Ahlus Sunnah wal Jama’ah based on the information of saheeh hadiths is someone different from what has been believed by the Shia, be it in terms of aqeedah, lineage, practices, teachings and tasks, as well as the roles after leading the Islamic ummah. Please get the detailed information about it based on the nas which are saheeh.

CHARACTERISTICS OF SHIA MAHDI (DAJJAL):

a. The Jewish (household of David’s) Law.

Al-Qaim or Imam Mahdi of the Shia will rule according to the laws of Prophet Daud and his kinfolks, as per the book al-Kafi authored by Abu Ja’far al-Kulaini, which according to Shia is the most saheeh book out of the four primary sources of the religion of Shia which cannot be disputed by anyone. All who followed the hadiths of Shia will find the riwayah of al-Kulaini in al-Kafi (Vol.1, pg.387-398):

Ali ibn Ibrahim narrated from – his father – from ibn Abi Umair – from Mansur – from Fadhl al-Aour – from Abi Ubaidah he reported: “When al-Qaim from the family of the prophet appears, he will rule according to the law of Daud and Sulaiman.”

Muhammad ibn Yahya narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from Muhammad ibn Sinan from Abaan who reported: “I have listened to Abu Abdullah [a.s.] said: ‘The world will not be gone (the occurrence of qiyamat) except after one from us appears and rules according to the rules of the household of Daud’

Ahmad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from Ibn Mahbub from Hisham ibn Salim from Ammar as Sabati he reported: “I asked Abu Abdullah [a.s.] : ‘In the name of what law would you rule with if you were to become a ruler?’ He answered: ‘According to God’s law and the law of Daud. And if we dispute over a situation where we cannot settle it, Jibril (Ruh al-Qudus) will reveal it to us.’

Muhammad ibn Ahmad from Muhammad ibn Khalid from Nazr ibn Suwaid from Yahya al Halabi from Imran ibn A’yun from Jaeed al-Hamdani from Ali ibn al-Hussein [a.s.] he said: “I asked him, 'With what law would you judge?' He said: 'With the law of Daud, and if there is an issue that cannot be settled, Jibril (Ruh al Quds) will reveal it to us.'

Ahmad ibn Mahran [r.a] from Muhammad ibn Ali from Ibn Mahbub from Hisham bin Salim from Ammar as Sabati reported: “I asked Imam Abu Abdullah [a.s.]: ‘With what law will you rule?’ He answered: ‘With God’s law and the law of Daud.’

b. The Hebrew Language.

Further, the 12th Imam, the Imam Mahdi of the Shia will speak in Hebrew (Jewish):
Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Saeed al Uqdah said: Ali ibn al-Hasan at-Taymali reported to us: al-Hasan and Muhammad bin Ali ibn Yusuf said, from Sa’daan ibn Muslim, from rijal (numerous transmitters), from al-Mufadhal ibn Umar he said: Abu Abdullah [a.s] said: “When Mahdi supplicates, he will supplicate to God in Hebrew language.” [Al-Ghaybah an Nu’mani, pg. 326]

c. The Jews will follow the Imam Mahdi of the Shia.

According to Shia, the Jews will become followers of the Imam Mahdi:

Sheikh al-Mufid reported in his book, Al-Irshaad, from al-Mufadhal ibn Umar that Imam Abu Abdullah [a.s] had said: “There will appear together with Imam Mahdi.. people from the nation of Prophet Musa (Israel).” [Al-Irshaad al-Mufid, pg. 402]

According to a hadith from the book Al-Kafi, composed by al-Kulaini, when hidden Imam Mahdi learnt from a book called al-Jafr (one of the holy books of the Shia claimed to be authored by Imam Ali [a.s.]), which contains teachings from the religion of Israel:

Imam [a.s.] will remained hidden for a period of time and then said, “In our hand is al-Jafr. Do they know what al-Jafr is?” So I asked, “What are the contents of al-Jafr?” The Imams [a.s.] said, “It contains the knowledge of the Prophets and the accomplishers of their hopes and the knowledge of the Israeli intelligentsias of the past.” [al-Kafi, Hadith 635, Ch. 40, pg. 1]

THE CONCLUSION OF THE RIWAYAHS FROM THE SHIA BOOKS ABOVE:

All these beliefs require us to believe that the 12th Imam of the Shia is actually the Jewish Dajjal, which Rasulullah SAW had warned us about, the figure who will deceive a lot of human beings and create various corruptions on earth. This is the person awaited by the Shia. With reference to evidences, these are what we know about their al-Qaim:

1. He will rule according to the legal system of the household of Daud, using the Talmud.

2. He uses the Hebrew language.

3. His followers consist of the Jewish people and religious leaders of the Jews.

4. When in hiding the Imam studies the Talmud which is the content of “al-Jafr”.

THE MESSIAH OF THE JEWS – THE MAHDI OF THE SHIA

Let us reflect on the similarities between the Shia Mahdi and the Dajjal Messiah of the Jews recounted by the Jewish religionists.

The famous Jewish writer, Raphael Pata’ had translated the book Mishne Torah, which was compiled by the Jewish priest of the past named Maimonides. The title of the translation is "The Messiah Texts", on pages 322-327, Maimonides wrote;

“King Messiah will arise in the future and will restore the kingship of David to its ancient condition, to its rule as it was at first. And he will rebuild the Temple and gather the exiled of Israel. And in his days all the laws will return as they were in the past. They will offer up sacrifices, and will observe the Sabbatical years and the jubilee years with regard to all the commandments stated in the Torah. And he who does not believe in him, or he who does not await his coming, denies not only the [other] prophets, but also the Torah and Moses our Master. For, behold, the Torah testifies about him [the Messiah], as it is written,

The Lord will return your captivity and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples whiter the Lord thy God hath scattered thee. If any of thine that are dispersed be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it (Deut. 30:3-5)

Furthermore, the Jews believe that the Messiah or al-Masih is a king, a winning conqueror from the descendants of Prophet Daud whom they called the son of Allah. They also believe that al-Masih will return to bring back the glory of Israel and unify the Jewish people in Palestine as well as making the law of the Taurat (the book of Prophet Musa) effective and operational.

They had already hoped that al-Masih would appear since the time of Prophet Musa. The name al-Masih – Messiah is always summoned by the Jewish people every time they are struck by disasters and every moment they are suffering those disasters.

However, at times, the name al-Masih is also christened on anyone who reacted to their (the Jews’) enemies, even though that person is not from the descendants of Daud, such as the title given to Cyrus. Since al-Masih still has not appeared, they called using some characteristics of the actual al-Masih i.e. a social restorer (muslih), just and well mannered. [see Arthur Hertzberg, Judaism, p. : 215 – 218 ]

Abbas Mahmud Aqqad said, a majority of the researchers believe that the idea of the honest savior was borrowed from the beliefs of Zoroaster, the original religion professed by the Persians. [See Dr. Ahmad Shalabi, Agama Yahudi (The Jewish Religion), Pustaka Nasional : Singapore, yr. : 1977, p. 185. Abbas Mahmud Aqqad, Allah, p. 117.]

Guignebert said: Indeed, it is the tendency of the Persians to portray continuous victories of the good camp over the bad camp after going through a long struggle. What is named as good by the Persians, is always named as al-Masih by the Jews [see Guignebert, The Jewish World in The Time of Jesus, p. 141].

The of idea of the existence of an idealist king who rules the whole world comes from the idea spread amongst the Semitic people (Jews) and it is then followed by the existence of the same ideal kingdom on earth, or what is called by the Jews and Christians as the Kingdom of God.

Some researchers also argues that the idea of al-Mahdi Muntazar held by Shia is borrowed from the idea of the awaited one from amongst the Jewish people. [see Max Margolis and Alexander Marx: A History of Hebrew People, pg. : 258]

WHAT WILL BE DONE BY THE SHIA MAHDI – DAJJAL AFTER HIS APPEARENCE?

Now, let’s see what are the characters of the Shia Mahdi – Dajjal and what will he do when he reappears, based on the hadiths of the Shia religion:

a. Rasulullah SAW is the first person to perform bai’ah to Imam Mahdi? A deviated aqeedah of the Shia.

The first person to bai’ah to the Shia Imam Mahdi is Rasulullah SAW after the raj’ah (resurrection). Rasulullah SAW will become his student. [Haqq al-Yaqin vol.2, pg. : 347 and Bashairu al-Darajat, pg. : 213]

b. When Imam Mahdi appears, Hypocrisy (Taqiyyah) for Shia religion will be annulled.

Taqiyyah is something compulsory to be practiced by one who is following the Shia religion. He will be out of the Shia religion if he does not practice it. Narrated from the 8th Imam, Ali bin Musa, he said, “There is no religion for the non wara’ and no iman for one who does not practice taqiyyah.” So he was asked, "O grandson of Rasulullah, until when (is one required to practice taqiyyah)?" He replied, “Until a certain day i.e. the day Imam Mahdi appears. Whoever does not practice taqiyyah before the appearance of Imam Mahdi, is not from amongst us.” (Kashf al-Ghummah Al-Ardabili, pg. 341).

c. Imam Mahdi is Wicket and Violent.

The Imam Mahdi awaited by the Shia is violent and cruel that he has no task other than murdering and slaughtering the humans, especially the Arabs and people from the Ahluss Sunnah.

They stated that when Imam Mahdi appears the Shia people will present every Nasibi (Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaah considered as kafir by the Shia) in front of Imam Mahdi. If the Nasibi acknowledges Islam i.e. the domain, he will be freed, otherwise he will be beheaded or made ready to pay jizyah as a dhimmi.(al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52, pg. 373, tafseer Furat ibn Ibrahim, pg. 100).

Al-Majlisi narrated, “there will be nothing left between us and the Arabs except massacres.” [Mula Baqir al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52 pg. 349].

In other riwayah, al-Majlisi narrated, “al-Muntazar will walk amongst the Arabs and kill them.” [Mula Baqir al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52, pg. 318]

He also narrated, “Look out Arabs because there will be very bad news, that verily, none from amongst them will come out with al-Qa’im.” [al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52, pg. : 333]

Cruel upon mankind - by killing 9/10 out of the Islamic ummah. When raj’ah, the people of the Ahlus Sunnah who do not accept his teachings (Shia Imamiyyah) will be beheaded. [al-Kulaini, al-Raudah min al-Kafi, vol.8, pg. 160]

Majlisi narrated from Abu Abdillah [a.s.], “Supposing mankind knows what is going to be done by al-Qaim when he appears, most of them will prefer to not see him because of the killings he would do to mankind.. it makes most of mankind say, 'This is not from the household of Muhammad, if he is from the household of Muhammad he certainly has compassion.' [Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52, pg. 353 ]

Sayid Sadr stated, “Indeed most the killings that happen on mankind are directed on the Muslimeen. Then he (al-Qaim) awards me a copy of his book...” [Sayyid Husein al-Musawi, lillah thumma li Tarikh, trans. Why I left Shia, pg. : 137]

d. Imam Mahdi will destroy the Ka’bah.

Al-Majlisi explained, the first thing going to be accomplished by al-Qaim after his appearance is to expel two individuals i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar, who are still wet and fresh, throwing them both using the wind and destroying the masjids. [Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52, 387]

Imam Mahdi, whose appearance is awaited according to the beliefs of the Ahlus Sunnah, will fill the earth with justice after it is filled with cruelties considered by the Shia as the one who will destroy the Kaabah and cut off the arms and legs of the guardians of the Haram Land.

Sheikh Mufid mentioned that, “When Imam Mahdi appears he will demolish Masjid al-Haram and dismember the hands of the Bani Shyaibah, then hangs them on the Kaabah as well as writing on it, 'these are the hands of the thieves of Kaabah.' (al-Mufid, Al-Irshaad. pg. 411, At-Tusi, Kitab al Ghaibah, pg. 282)

Al-Majlisi narrated, “Verily, al-Qaim will demolish Masjidil Haram and Masjid Nabawi until the ground is flattened.” [al-Majlisi, Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52, pg. : 338. also al-Tusi, al-Ghaibah, pg. 282]

e. Digging up the graves of all the Prophet’s Sahabahs.

The graves of Abu Bakr al-Siddiq and Umar al-Khattab RA are to be dug up, and they are to be crucified and flogged in front of the crowds. Both of them will be resurrected to receive their sentences. [see, Ni’matullah al-Jazairi, Al-Anwar al-Nu’maniyyah, vol.2, pg. : 85 and Majlisi, Haqq al-Yaqin, vol. 2, pg. : 242 ]

Meanwhile, in the era of Mahdi’appearance, when raj’ah, Imam Mahdi will resurrect `Aisha and execute the law of hudud on her, as `Aisha was said to be committing zina with Rasulullah SAW during her life. [Al-Anwar al-Nu’maniyyah, vol. 1, pg. : 161, Tafsir al-Shafi, vol. 2, pg. 108, Haq al-Yaqin, vol. 2, pg. 256, Hayat al-Qulub, vol. 2, pg. 611]

al-Majlisi explained that the first thing to be accomplished by al-Qaim after he appears is to expel two persons i.e. Abu Bakr and Umar who are still wet and fresh, hurling them with the winds and demolish the masjids. [Bihar al-Anwar, vol. 52, pg. 387 ]

f. The Shia Mahdi follows the law of Daud and Sulaiman (Book of Zabur) in cruel way.

Al-Majlisi narrated that, “al-Qaim will bring a new teaching, a new book anda new law.” [al-Majlisi, Buhar al-Anwar, vol. 52, pg. : 354 ]

Al-Kulaini in Usul al-Kafi, the most saheeh book for the Shia exceeding the saheeh of Saheeh al-Bukhari for the Ahlus Sunnah, narrated from Imam Abu Abdillah [a.s.] he said: “If al-Qaim from the household of Muhammad appears, he will rule using the law of Daud and Sulaiman (teachings of Taurat), he will not ask for evidences.” [Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. : 397]

CONCLUSION

Finally, let us all study about the people of Persia, the followers of Dajjal who would greet his appearance. Only those whose inner eyes are blind would consider the Shia Persians as having the same religion as them, without studying the background of their involvement and cooperation with Zionist America and Israel in the toppling down the Taliban of Afghanistan and Iraq. The Shia, whether it be Iran, Syria or Hizbullah are the allies of Israel despite the conflict and their phoney wars. It is sufficient that we reflect on the riwayah of Imam Muslim where Rasulullah SAW said, “Dajjal, will be followed by 70,000 followers from the town of Jewish Isfahan, who wear the Persian (Shiah) robes - Tayalisah”.

Submitted by a Mujahid

Theunjustmedia.com


http://theunjustmedia.com/Islamic%20Perspectives/Feb10/Imam%20Mahdi%20The%20Shia%20Version%20-%20Messiah%20Dajjal%20Al%20Mashih.htm

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

38 posted on 01/27/2011 2:41:24 AM PST by Traianus (YES I GOT HIM! BASHAR IS 666....)
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To: PghBaldy

Only if they are tolerated.


39 posted on 01/27/2011 2:55:10 AM PST by screaminsunshine (Surfers Rule)
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To: jd777
In 1000 ad. The Muslim world was far far ahead of Europe in medicine mathematics and engineering.- and in all areas of knowledge as a matter of fact. Most people are unaware of how backwards Europe was until coming into contact with the world of Islam during the crusades. For example Charlemagne, the first Holy Roman emperor, was able to speak an early version of German, Latin, and some Arabic, but was unable to read or write in any language. He could barely sign his own name.

I've heard this so many times, I guess it's a standard tune anyone can play. Let's throw in a few facts...

Most of Europe was illiterate and backwards, but so was most of Islam. A few educated people were keeping the lamp lit on either side.

In 1000 AD, the Fatimid caliphate was dominant. Look it up on wiki. They were not representative of Islamic empires. One relatively benevolent government in 1300 years and it didn't last long.

As for Charlemagne, nobody knows for sure if he could read or not, it was writing he had the difficulty with; in any case he promoted education and scholarship.

The Fatimid rulers generally promoted scholarship also, and had more time to do it than a single lifetime; but in both cases, it was a matter of leadership and the direction they wanted their people to take. In both cases, nearly everyone muddled through life without literacy. Yet the seeds planted by the Europeans took root. The gains made by the Fatimids were lost.

Finally, the crusades did not magically transform Europeans by introducing them to the enlightened beings called muslims. The south of France was highly civilized, and the nobility of the region prized learning. The Fatimids were losing their juice by then.

Most people on either side were primitive, but among the muslims, their leaders were inclined to keep them that way; not so in Europe.

40 posted on 01/27/2011 3:07:59 AM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (BYOST -- bring your own sark tag. Thank you.)
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