Dwindling of Persecuted Christians in Holy Land most Unreported story

Calgary Herald ^ | 12/27/10 | Paul Stanway

[ChicagoHebrew]

Oh and I'm one of those few that believe this generation political Israel has nothing to do with the first century Jews either prophetically or genetically.

At least with respect to genetics, you are very wrong. Do some research on Jewish genetics. You'll find that Jewish populations around the globe (except Ethiopians) cluster as one population group, including Jews from Persia, Iraq, and Bucharia, who have been in their respective host countries since the first exile, and had minimal population contacts with Jews from North Africa or Europe.

The only logical conclusion is that today's Jews predominantly descend from the Jews of 2000 years ago, with only partial admixture from surrounding populations.

[abu afak]

You don’t have to tel me CXH... been doing this a long time.

Whenever you have a question on this conflict I suggest googling my handle and the topic

ie, ‘abu afak census’

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q=abu+afak+census

which will yield Scores of posts like:

http://www.israelforum.com/board/showpost.php?p=32356&postcount=64

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08364a.htm

“”...Jerusalem (El Quds) is the capital of a sanjak and the seat of a mutasarrif directly dependent on the Sublime Porte. In the administration of the sanjak the mutasarrif is assisted by a council called majlis ida ra; the city has a municipal government (majlis baladiye) presided over by a mayor. The total population is estimated at 66,000.
The Turkish census of 1905, which counts only Ottoman subjects, gives these figures: Jews, 45,000; Moslems, 8,000; Orthodox Christians, 6000; Latins, 2500; Armenians, 950; Protestants, 800; Melkites, 250; Copts, 150; Abyssinians, 100; Jacobites, 100; Catholic Syrians, 50. During the nineteenth century large suburbs to the north and east have grown up, chiefly for the use of the Jewish colony. These suburbs contain nearly half the present population...””

Growth of Jerusalem 1838-Present
The Growth of Jerusalem

....... Jews Muslims Christians Total
1838 6,000 5,000 3,000 14,000
1844 7,120 5,760 3,390 16,270
1876 12,000 7,560 5,470 25,030
1905 40,000 8,000 10,900 58,900
1948 99,320 36,680 31,300 167,300
1990 353,200 124,200 14,000 491,400
1992 385,000 150,000 15,000 550,000
http://www.testimony-magazine.org/jerusalem/bring.htm

[1000 silverlings]

*Are you anti-semitic*

You have confused anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Even some Jews are anti-Zionist.

[abu afak]

“”*Are you anti-semitic*””

1000 Silverlings:
“”You have confused anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism. Even some Jews are anti-Zionist.”

Very Few Jews are anti-zionist. (a few percent)
90% of such are members of ultra-orthodox wack sects Neturei Karta and Satmar.
Some of them are outright antiosemitic as well..
‘True Torah Jews’ and NK-USA members showed up at a-jad’s Holocaust denial conference.

And briefly, their rationale for such is that Israel shouldn’t exist because the Messiah/Christ hsn’t come yet.

So if you want to USE these ultra-orthodox sects as cover... please use the rest of their crap.

[1000 silverlings]

we all have enough sense not to worship a beast

[M. Espinola]

The leftist state-controlled medias of the world could care less about this grave issue, since it does not effect them.

[topcat54]

Well said my Jewish brother. And Shalom to you!

Buggman is a gentile sans foreskin. He has undergone some messianic ritual.

[Buggman]

Jewish ritual, TC. Buggman has also married a Jewish wife and is raising Jewish children. Disciples of Yeshua the Messiah, yes, but Jewish nevertheless.

If you want to consider me to be no more Jewish than Timothy, that's your problem, not mine.

Shalom.

[CynicalBear]

You must forgive topcat. He’s wrong on so many issues but I keep trying. I’m not sure he understands the difference between the Jewish ancestry and the Jewish religion.

(stands back and waves tentatively at topcat.)

[topcat54]

Jewish ritual, TC. Buggman has also married a Jewish wife and is raising Jewish children. Disciples of Yeshua the Messiah, yes, but Jewish nevertheless. If you want to consider me to be no more Jewish than Timothy, that's your problem, not mine.

I realize it been awhile since we discussed you experience, but let me try to recall my understanding. Please feel free to correct my understanding here.

You are a follower of Jesus Christ (aka Yeshua Ha'Mashiach) and are associated with a messianic congregation. In fact, I think you like to be called “rabbi.” You claim to follow the Mosaic law given to ancient Israel in some fashion.

You were born a gentile with no identifiable Jewish roots. Unlike Timothy, you were not even leaning Jewish. A few years ago you underwent what could be called ritual conversion in this messianic congregation, including, as I recall physical circumcision. Another way of putting it, you did not convert to a recognized branch of Judaism and then convert to messianism/Christianity.

I believe your wife is of Jewish ancestry, but, like yourself, now self-identified with this messianic congregation.

Messianism is not considered one of the official branches of Judaism. In spite of your messianic “conversion,” you would probably not be considered Jewish by any of these branches. E.g., it’s doubtful that you could claim Israeli citizenship under their law of return.

Since there first century and the end of the old covenant age, there is only one operative covenant, that is, the new covenant.

Under the terms of the new covenant, they is no procedure or ritual for a bona fide gentile to “become Jewish” in a Christian context.

Pardon the crudity, but in my opinion what you underwent is akin to a spiritual sex change operation. It’s a denial of what you were born, and how that works itself out within the body of Christ, where “there is neither Jew nor Greek.” I’m sure you’ll admit that you are now no more a child of Abraham than your uncircumcised fellow gentiles.

Unlike the rather unique experience of Timothy we find in the Bible (2 Timothy 1:5), who finalized his Jewish upbringing by undergoing circumcision in order to not be an offense to other Jews in the temple, it’s hard for me to image that real Jews take very kindly to your experience.

It’s clear from the Bible that Jesus calls no one to be circumcised. Faith is not based on nor proven by adherence to (ersatz) old covenant rituals. All that matters to Christ is circumcision of the foreskin of the heart. The external testimony of the heart circumcision in the new covenant is water baptism, a sign universally applied (Eph. 4:5).

I’ve been hard on messianics in the past because I think their cultish religion is dangerous to the body of Christ. This notion of Christian “conversion” to ersatz Judaism smacks of spiritual superiority. Your experience has not changed that opinion, merely strengthened it.

[CynicalBear]

>>Since there first century and the end of the old covenant age, there is only one operative covenant, that is, the new covenant.<<

These covenants established the following promises for Israel :

A nation forever
A land forever
A King forever
A throne forever
A kingdom forever
Blessings forever

The Scriptures are clear that these covenants were given to Israel alone (cf. Rom. 9.1-5; Eph. 2.11-12) and that the nation of Israel will exist forever and that God will never forsake Israel ( Is. 14.1; 59.20-21; 61.8-9; Jer. 31-35-37; Ezek. 16.59-63; Hos. 2.16-23). Gentiles were blessed through being united to Israel (e.g. proselytes) or through honoring the Abrahamic Covenant (i.e. Gen. 12.3). The Church, the body of Christ, is a new creation, which was a mystery God revealed to the apostle Paul. The Church is blessed through grace by being identified with Christ in his death and resurrection.

The foundational covenant for Israel's relationship to God is the Abrahamic Covenant. Once established, it formed the groundwork and established the basis for the promises contained in the other covenants.

[topcat54]

These covenants established the following promises for Israel :

We’ve been through this before, and it’s all in the Bible, so I know you know all this.

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. , He does not say "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. (Gal. 3:16)

Here you apparently think Paul is teaching exactly the opposite of what is written. Paul says that it IS NOT to seeds (plural), but to Seed (singular), that is, Jesus Christ. Why would you insist on trying to make the Bible to say the exact opposite of what is written?

And we know this is reference to the Abrahamic covenant from the context of Gal. 3:

17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.

…

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

All the followers of Jesus Christ share in the promises and blessings to Abraham because we are in The Seed, Christ Himself. Christ alone is the basis for all the blessings. They are spiritual in nature and spiritually discerned.

If you deny this, then you are forced into the uncomfortable position of advocating a form of bi-covenantalism, one for Israel and one for the Church. You turn Jewish believers in Jesus Christ (like Peter and Paul) into covenantal schizophrenics. (The older dispies held the two people view -- one heavenly and one earthly -- but most recent thinking dispensationalists have been forced to abandon that notion as unworkable. Similarly, the older view of “kingdom of God” vs. “kingdom of heaven”.)

The Scriptures are clear that these covenants were given to Israel alone

If you are referring to national Israel as opposed to the remnant (cf. Rom. 9:6), there’s no such indication in any of these texts. And the gentiles share in all these blessings by virtue of their faith in the Seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ.

In any event, I’m sure you would agree with me that a gentile Christian can’t “convert” to ersatz Judaism and somehow get an extra special blessing.

[Lee N. Field]

The older dispies held the two people view -- one heavenly and one earthly

The old Scofield dispensationalism is alive and well. I have heard that taught, with my own ears.

In any event, I’m sure you would agree with me that a gentile Christian can’t “convert” to ersatz Judaism and somehow get an extra special blessing.

Oh, but they try. If I was at home, I'd have a dandy link handy, about to immigrants to Israel, wanting to be considered converts to Judaism but retaining their belief in Messiah Jesus. This nonsense can come from nothing but dispensational roots.

Bad Eschatology Has Consequences.

[Buggman]

TC, to be really blunt, I have far better things to do with my time these days than to rehash old, old debates with someone who thinks that "Gospel" is spelled C-A-L-V-I-N-I-S-M or who thinks that praising God for the miracles and fulfillments of prophecy taking place before our very eyes is the greatest threat to (his sect of) Christianity today.

I get plenty of questions from those who honestly want to know how Yeshua's undeniable Jewishness affects our understanding of the Gospel and plenty of opportunities for debate with those whose minds are not set in stone. I simply no longer have time for this:

As for my title, I don't really care whether anyone uses it or not. I know that there are many Christians who through a misapplication of Mat. 23 are uncomfortable with it, and many traditional Jews who don't think I deserve it, so I don't make it an issue. You're the only one who seems to be pitching a fit about it.

As for our position in the Jewish community, you'd be surprised. The general consensus in Israel is that Messianic Jews who are living Jewish lifestyles should be counted as Jews rather than Christians. There have been news stories in Israel that have portrayed Messianics in a very positive light. A Messianic baker in Israel was recognized as fully Jewish by the national court of Israel when it dictated that the rabbis could not revolk her kosher status simply because of her belief in Yeshua. We've actually been asked by the Sanhedrin to get our act together and appoint our own sanhedrin which would be authorized to speak for us so that they can have someone to talk to as they consider the possibility of allowing not only Messianics who are born Jewish to make aliyah, but also proselytes like myself.

On a personal level, I have two non-Messianic in-laws who enjoy coming to our synagogue--and recognize it as a synagogue, not a church. I have been asked to lead the blessings for meals and the prayers in honor of the dead. I have spent time with rabbis and anti-missionaries, including one in Jerusalem itself who by the time we left his store considered us to be brother Jews.

I won't pretend it's all a rosy picture. There are still persecutions--extraordinarily mild ones compared to what Chrstians and Jews suffer elsewhere, but it does happen. And if they didn't, I'd be worried, since that would mean that the Adversary didn't consider us a threat. But the fact remains that you are behind the times on this subject.

I do hope someday that you'll repent of your legalism and your reverse-Galatianism. Until then, shalom.

[CynicalBear]

>> Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. , He does not say "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ. (Gal. 3:16)<< Look at a previous verse to put the verse you quoted into context.

Gal 3:8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Look at the promise he was talking about. The promise was that all nations would be blessed. All nations were blessed through the one seed Jesus. He was not talking in this chapter about the promises of land etc.

Again, in the following verse that you quoted he is talking about those who believe in Jesus obtaining the promise (covenant) and becoming “heirs according to the promise” of many nations being blessed.

>> Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.<<

In the above verse “there is neither Jew nor Greek” is in reference to those who accept Jesus as their savior. Whether they are Jew, Greek, or whatever, makes no difference when they “are Christ’s”.

Now, on the other hand, Romans 9:7 also uses the singular but surely doesn’t mean a singular person. Specifying that the seed of Abraham is in reference to the seed of Isaac and not of Ishmael.

Romans 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

And again using a prior verse to put it in perspective. Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Surely a different distinction and meaning for the two scriptures.

Using Gal 3:16 is rather disingenuous to the debate at hand. I truly hope it wasn’t used as a means to deceive. You may need to check your Preterist references to see if they are doing the same thing to you.

[topcat54]

Look at the promise he was talking about.

In verse 16 Paul specifically says “Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises (epaggeliai, plural) made.” There is nothing limiting in that use of “promises.” Everything that happen 430 years before the giving of the law is encompassed by the word “promises.”

So you can try and twist out of the plain meaning of the passage; that all the promises to Abraham were made with the Seed, that is, with Jesus Christ, and thus the blessing are shared by all those who are the true children of Abraham.

Until you can get your head wrapped around that truth, the rest will not make any sense.

Using Gal 3:16 is rather disingenuous to the debate at hand.

How's that?

[topcat54]

TC, to be really blunt, I have far better things to do with my time these days than to rehash old, old debates with someone who thinks that "Gospel" is spelled C-A-L-V-I-N-I-S-M …

Interesting, but irrelevant. Just pointing out that you can fool some of the people some of the time. (I did nail it though, didn't I, “rabbi?”)

Anyway, it's always a pleasure. Let me know when you plan to emigrate.

[CynicalBear]

>> Let me know when you plan to emigrate.<<

Those kinds of snide remarks are indicative of where your heart is. I have watched that as we have debated. I would suggest that you seriously re study the verses on scoffing.

I’ll be gone for about a week to my dad’s funeral.

[topcat54]

I’m curious whether you think the Bible sanctions gentile circumcision. Is a Christian who undergoes the knife suddenly a Jew in your estimation?

Paul had much more severe things for people who would senselessly mutilate themselves for the cause of Christ.

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, (Phil. 3)

Paul was reminding gentile believers what true circumcision is all about, and warning them of the Jews who would put pressure on them to follow the law of Moses, including the need for physical circumcision, to prove their fidelity. It’s hard to read Philippians 3 in particular and get any comfort from gentile circumcision.

He also has this to say in Galatians 5:

9 A little leaven leavens the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. 11 And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the cross has ceased. 12 I could wish that those who trouble you would even cut themselves off! 13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

If you examine verse 12 in the original Greek, Paul is literally saying that he wishes their troublers would go castrate (apokoyontai) themselves!! Not a very pleasant thought. But given the gravity of the issue, quite appropriate.

Some of these folks use the excuse that it’s all voluntary, that they are trying to “keep Torah” just like Jesus did. It’s quite obvious that no one can “keep Torah” like Jesus did in this new covenant age. It’s a fabrication. Then there’s the subtle (or perhaps not so subtle) pressure in the body of Christ from the notion that “I’m better to you spiritually because I got circumcised to be like Jesus,” which is an abomination in its divisiveness.

Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum puts it this way:

But does not the Book of Galatians argue against the practice of circumcision? Yes and no. Circumcision for Gentiles, circumcision on the basis of the Mosaic Law, and circumcision for justification or sanctification are all wrong. The Book of Galatians condemns circumcision as a means for justification. Except for health and medical reasons, there is never any need or requirement for Gentile circumcision. Furthermore, Messianic believers who circumcise on the basis of the Law of Moses are also wrong, since the Law ended with the Messiah. But this same book clearly states that the Abrahamic Covenant is still very much in effect with all its features, and this includes circumcision. So circumcision on the basis of the Abrahamic Covenant is right and proper, and it is my conviction that it is still very much in effect for Jewish believers. Paul, who taught the Gentiles not to circumcise, did not so teach the Jews; this is clear from Acts 21:17-26, and from Acts 16:1-3 when he had Timothy circumcised. It was not circumcision per se that was ruled out, rather, circumcision on the basis of Mosaic Law. (Jews, Gentiles, Christians)

Honestly, I don’t believe circumcision for religious reasons is right for any Christian, but if Jewish believers which to observe it for strictly cultural reasons, that’s find by me.

Sorry about the loss of your dad. May you find comfort in knowing he is in the Lord’s presence.

The Heidelberg Catechism

Question 1. What is your only comfort in life and death?
Answer: That I am not my own, but belong with body and soul, both in life and in death, to my faithful Saviour Jesus Christ. He has fully paid for all my sins with His precious blood, and has set me free from all the power of the devil. He also preserves me in such a way that without the will of my heavenly Father not a hair can fall from my head; indeed, all things must work together for my salvation. Therefore, by His Holy Spirit He also assures me of eternal life and makes me heartily willing and ready from now on to live for Him.