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To: zeugma; Patriotic1
Btw, I really thought your equating people who rob a store with people who don't pay taxes. Really puts your "conservatism" into sharp perspective.

The state collects taxes. If taxes are to high, that is a state issue, and citizens of the state should deal with that by electing representatives that set the tax rates "fairly" for the services that the state supplies.

So really, the amount of tax a state already collects is not a germaine issue in this discussion. This discussion is about how to collect WHATEVER taxes the state collects in a fair manner.

The state has determined that one way to "fairly" collect taxes is to tax each person in the state a proportion of what they spend (btw, this is the basis of the "fair tax" national proposal). It's sometimes considered a good conservative tax, because first, everybody pays, which means everybody who votes is hurt by it, and therefore won't vote to wildly increase it. Second, it is a tax you can "avoid" to some degree by not buying things.

If we assume that the state requires $X of sales tax revenue, then the tax rate would be set to collect $X. If 5% of the people stop paying sales tax by purchasing things online from companies that don't collect sales tax, that means the other 95% have to pay additional sales tax to make up the missing 5%.

This has the SAME RESULT as if those 5% of the people walked into the houses of the other 95% and took money off their kitchen table.

However, my statement wasn't about equating the two, although you can, it was about how your argument about "sticking it" was used by people who rob stores, banks, and commit other criminal acts.

And it is clear that our society is fast losing the moral compass that holds it together -- when a society only obeys laws at the point of the gun, society is finished. There are not nearly enough cops to enfore the law, nor can freedom exist where laws are enforced by the barrel of a gun.

Our freedom is predicated on the idea that only the abberant FEW would break a law, even if there was no chance of being caught. When most people obey the law, the police can go after people who have BROKEN the law, so as to offer deterence to others who might break the law. THe very notion of "deterence" indicates we don't have police to STOP people from breaking the law -- it's enforcement that does that, but only weakly.

Virtually everybody speeds. One day I decided to drive at exactly the speed limit. I sat in the right lane, set the cruise control, and rolled along. After a while, my kids started commenting on how many people were passing me, and how it seemed to be taking forever to get where we were going (in fact it didn't, only a couple minutes more than usual, but that's perception from seeing cars pass you). I then said "welcome to the speed limit".

People speed because speed limits seem set for the worst drivers; because enforcement is spotty at best; because everybody is doing it, so even harsh enforcement catches only a few people -- they can't pull us ALL over; and because the "penalty" is a civil fine/points, usually easily payable, indicating that the state itself doesn't consider the speed limit violation a REAL CRIME.

Tickets become a "payment" for the privilege of driving faster. Police tell you that 9mph over the limit will almost never get you a ticket. Limits are 10mph low, so that when you drive 11mph over the limit, they can give you a ticket you can't fight by saying "but I was not speeding, the radar gun must be off by 1mph". Then they let you plead down to a 1-9mph over the limit charge.

Sorry -- point is that people break laws they don't respect when they know they can get away with it; and what we see is that when a large group of ordinary citizens get together, like after a sports match, they commit wanton acts of violence and mayhem, because they know they won't get caught, and apparently the average person has no respect for ANY laws anymore.

If you think a "use tax" is invalid, you should fight to get your state legislature to repeal the law. Or you should publicly announce your intention to break the law, as a good act of "civil disobedience", and encourage others to do so, in order to pressure your legislature.

86 posted on 12/14/2010 11:58:10 AM PST by CharlesWayneCT
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To: CharlesWayneCT
when a society only obeys laws at the point of the gun, society is finished. There are not nearly enough cops to enfore the law, nor can freedom exist where laws are enforced by the barrel of a gun.

This society is way beyond that point - most people would not pay their Federal taxes, except for the fact that it is withheld by the company they are working for (lots of self-employed are adept at avoiding lots of taxes, hence the new 1099 requirement). The governments' guns have been aimed taxpayers way for many years now. Our government does not represent the people anymore - its officialdom is an obvious kleptocracy stealing everything coming its way, distributing to themselves, families, friends and the well connected corporations, while avoiding paying the very taxes they impose on the sheep (once in a while being discovered, and embarrassed for a few days, by record keeping errors, amnesty of course).

Note the recent brazen hold up of the taxpayers, our "representatives" indenturing us, our children, and their children, to unknown trillions of dollars of debt to make sure the banksters do not suffer loss of their billionaire estates or multi-million dollar annual bonuses after their imprudent binge at the tables.

This theft through the political class has been going on for a long time, and is reaching a crescendo that will bring down the whole society. Tea parties are a meek response to the entrenched kleptocracy.

This society is rotting from the head.

87 posted on 12/14/2010 9:01:19 PM PST by GregoryFul (Obama - Jim Jones redux)
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