Posted on 09/30/2010 3:55:02 AM PDT by golux
“By the way fellas, there have been some complaints on both sides of this thread about FR not being “what it used to be.””
I have made no compliant. I don’t doubt this lying nitwit has, though.
Can historical quotes from "Gods and Generals" or "Outlaw Josey Wales" be far behind?
Once again, you leave out the salient point in my post and offer a line that has nothing to do with the veracity of the point made; the GENERAL KNOWLEDGE in the history of Liberia being such that; Even the Hollywood liberal writers knew what a sh#*hole Liberia was:
In other words, even the liberals know that of which you seem (among others far too numerous to mention) totally ignorant.
Kind of a mystifying post, but I am supposing that because I wrote:
Abe jumps in when the Lees and many others had made the place somewhat habitable.
391 posted on Saturday, October 02, 2010 10:30:38 AM by jessduntno (9/24/10, FBI raids home of appropriately named AAAN leader Hatem Abudayyeh, a friend of Obama.)
BY "somewhat habitable" I meant as opposed to INHABITABLE, when sending them there meant a VERY strong chance of dying in the jungle. You know, like your boy Abe wanted to do.
Did you think that I said it was now a "land of milk and honey?" because of Lee?
No, that was the reinterpretation of my post by your little friend (or your nom de merde) NS. Try to get your facts straight, genius. I was saying that it was pretty common knowledge that it was STILL a sh%$thole in the 1870's.
We can not, then, make them equals."
Could he even if he wanted to? If Lincoln could wave a magic wand and make blacks free and equals, what would the reaction be throughout the country? North, and especially South?
Ahhhhhhh...if wishes were horses, the slaves would have all been gone whether they liked it or not.
Or if the wishes on the other side had been granted they all would be property. Again, is that preferable to you?
But since "sudden execution is impossible," he would have made it happen sooner or later, I have no doubt.
Of course you don't.
Remember; he made Liberia a recognized entity in 1862.
Thirteen years after Great Britain had recognized Liberian sovereignty. That made Liberia something that the confederacy never achieved, status as a sovereign nation.
Now, how do you re-interpret these remarks to insist that Lincoln did NOT want to send them all? I just can't wait to hear THIS one.
Reading the whole speech would help.
jessduntno: "I have made no compliant. I don’t doubt this lying nitwit has, though."
So much for your attempts at mediation.
And we all know that Hollywood has never, ever exaggerated anything or taken any literary license or ever gotten an historical fact wrong, has it?
So if Liberia was so God-awful, how can you defend Lee's subsidizing passage to that 'sh*thole'? I mean look at their fate? William Burke studied at a seminary in Monrovia, something he could never have done in Virginia. He became an ordained Presbyterian minister, a status he could never have achieved in any Southern state. Five years after landing he was writing, “Persons coming to Africa should expect to go through many hardships, such as are common to the first settlement in any new country. I expect it, and was not disappointed or discouraged at any thing I met with; and so far from being dissatisfied with the country, I bless the Lord that ever my lot was cast in this part of the earth. The Lord has blessed me abundantly since my residence in Africa, for which I feel that I can never be sufficiently thankful.” His wife was writing to Mrs. Lee, “I love Africa and would not exchange it for America.”
Does that sound like he had been sent to a fate worth than death to you? That he was worse off than he had been as a slave?
Your whole point, assuming you really have one, seems to be that it was OK to for Europeans to sail to the wilds of North America and attempt to carve out a life from the wilderness, but it was suicidal for blacks to do the same in Africa. That white Americans could set off into the interior of the U.S. and that wasn't cruel, but black Americans could not set off to Africa because that was inhumane. One has to wonder what you're trying to prove.
No one but an uneducated moron could mistake the Tennessee state flag for the Stars and the Bars. The Y with the three stars was even on my Army NG uniform. The state flag has nothing to do with CSA and everything to do with the three geographical regions that divide the state and the two main rivers systems forming the Tennessee River. The Tennessee River passes through the state twice north to south dividing it.
The Civil War had very little to do with slavery and everything to do with being an industrial backed war. It was for economical control and not much more more. The north industrialist who were bigots and racist themselves wanted southern industrial growth {competition} stopped by the federal government. Lincoln was their puppet on a string. He shredded the Constitution just for them.
Never mind the fact that slavery was still lawful in several northern states and most of it's industries were built by slaves. When the companies got built slavery became a liability to them. The only jobs offered to blacks in the industrial pre-civil war north were jobs no white man would have and the wages were way below par. It pretty much stayed that way for the next 100 years too. IOW the north still engaged heavilly in economical slavery.
In the 1960's the north was just as unsettled racially as parts of the south. Most parts of the south saw no violence as the blacks and whites had know each other for generations. Violence related to race happened in many parts of the U.S. but not just Mississippi. The north had more than it's share.
While I personally am opposed to slavery it was an economical necessity which built this nation both north and south. In many ways it is like the Coal Mining industry used to be in the Appalachians. It was economical slavery. Wages were so low you owed the company most of your money for life's necessities come payday. This was not changed by the goodness of the corporate mine owners. This was changed due to technology advances called strip mining which made Coal Towns and company stores a liability. I am old enough to remember seeing Coal Towns.
Economical factors which occurred in the Pre Civil War North that made slavery unprofitable would have also made it unprofitable in the south likely within 20 years. The technology advances would have made it a liability. Slavery would have died out in the U.S. by 1900. Instead it continued into the early 1960's in many regions.
I do find it ironic that the federal government segregated the U.S. Army during the Civil War and afterward even unto death and segregated portions of National Cemeteries. The south was not the evil the north made it out to be nor was the north the righteous liberator the PC history book make it out to be. Both sides had faults but the CSA as closer to the Founding Fathers USA than that of the US government of the early 1860's. My loyalities would have been CSA at that time.
It should be noted that Lincoln’s speech was in opposition to the expansion of slavery. An anathema to you I realize, but there it is.”
Oh. So he didn’t mean what he said the thirty zillion times he was quoted as being a segregationist? Please.
“Could he even if he wanted to? If Lincoln could wave a magic wand and make blacks free and equals, what would the reaction be throughout the country? North, and especially South?”
His “magic wand” made habeus corpus disappear!
Ahhhhhhh...if wishes were horses, the slaves would have all been gone whether they liked it or not.
“Or if the wishes on the other side had been granted they all would be property. Again, is that preferable to you?”
You still don’t want to hear my message. I was not in favor of slavery. Slave trading for the most part ended in the 1870’s worldwide; not just here. I would have let it end here the way it should have. By ballet.
But since “sudden execution is impossible,” he would have made it happen sooner or later, I have no doubt.
“Of course you don’t.”
No, I don’t. He was on the record too long and too often to think anything else.
Remember; he made Liberia a recognized entity in 1862.
“Thirteen years after Great Britain had recognized Liberian sovereignty. That made Liberia something that the confederacy never achieved, status as a sovereign nation.”
1847- On July 26, The Liberian Declaration of Independence was adopted and signed. In it, Liberians charged their mother country, the United States, with injustices that made it necessary for them to leave and make new lives for themselves in Africa. They called upon the international community to recognize the independence and sovereignty of Liberia. Britain was one of the first nations to recognize the new country. The United States did not recognize Liberia until the American Civil War.
Now, how do you re-interpret these remarks to insist that Lincoln did NOT want to send them all? I just can’t wait to hear THIS one.
“Reading the whole speech would help.”
Which speech? He gave so many in support of segregation that there isn’t enough bandwidth to support them all.
I was right. That WAS entertaining. Read the whole speech. Kind of like saying read the Mark Twain short story that had jokes in it. Which one? Are you demented? Do you think this was the ONLY speech he made that supported this?
How about this one. I will anxiously wait your response as to how this is taken out of context. Note the date, the Eulogist and the WHOLE paragraph. Look it up online if you want and see the entire document (it’s long, but like Zero, he gave good speech). Let me know if THIS one is taken out of context, too:
Eulogy on Henry Clay
July 6, 1852
Springfield, Illinois
The American Colonization Society was organized in 1816. Mr. Clay, though not its projector, was one of its earliest members; and he died, as for the many preceding years he had been, its President. It was one of the most cherished objects of his direct care and consideration; and the association of his name with it has probably been its very greatest collateral support. He considered it no demerit in the society, that it tended to relieve slave-holders from the troublesome presence of the free negroes; but this was far from being its whole merit in his estimation. In the same speech from which I have quoted he says: “There is a moral fitness in the idea of returning to Africa her children, whose ancestors have been torn from her by the ruthless hand of fraud and violence. Transplanted in a foreign land, they will carry back to their native soil the rich fruits of religion, civilization, law and liberty. May it not be one of the great designs of the Ruler of the universe, (whose ways are often inscrutable by short-sighted mortals,) thus to transform an original crime, into a signal blessing to that most unfortunate portion of the globe?” This suggestion of the possible ultimate redemption of the African race and African continent, was made twenty-five years ago. Every succeeding year has added strength to the hope of its realization. May it indeed be realized! Pharaoh’s country was cursed with plagues, and his hosts were drowned in the Red Sea for striving to retain a captive people who had already served them more than four hundred years. May like disasters never befall us! If as the friends of colonization hope, the present and coming generations of our countrymen shall by any means, succeed in freeing our land from the dangerous presence of slavery; and, at the same time, in restoring a captive people to their long-lost father-land, with bright prospects for the future; and this too, so gradually, that neither races nor individuals shall have suffered by the change, it will indeed be a glorious consummation. And if, to such a consummation, the efforts of Mr. Clay shall have contributed, it will be what he most ardently wished, and none of his labors will have been more valuable to his country and his kind.
Right.
“Does that sound like he had been sent to a fate worth than death to you? That he was worse off than he had been as a slave?”
No. Sounds like the man prospered thanks to Marse Robert and others, against all odds. He should be applauded. To reiterate, the survival rate had improved a great deal between the time Abe started agitating for it, with his hero and idol Clay, who had been pushing it for years and years earlier and this great turn of fortune happened for the man THANKS TO THE LEE FAMILY.
Thanks for proving my point. You really should try reading posts all the way through. Oh and try getting help with comprehension.
“So much for your attempts at mediation.”
So much for your attempts at NOT being a lying nitwit.
And how was he different from any other person you would care to name from the period. You insist on judging Lincoln by 21st century standards of racism.
His “magic wand” made habeus corpus disappear!
Can't answer the question, can you? Or won't, one of the two.
I was not in favor of slavery.
Of course you aren't. But if true, then that must mean you were in favor of keeping an entire race in the country as non-citizens without any rights at all since that was the condition that free blacks were in, thanks to a Southern Supreme Court chief justice. So...where is that all that much different than slavery?
I would have let it end here the way it should have. By ballet.
It would have been nice if slavery had ended peacefully in the U.S. Unfortunately a segment of the country decided that defending their institution of slavery and guaranteeing its continuation was worth plunging the country into a protracted and bloody rebellion. Slavery ended badly. But it did end, and millions of people became citizens thanks to Abraham Lincoln and in spite of men like Jeff Davis or Robert Lee.
No, I don’t. He was on the record too long and too often to think anything else.
Cherry-pick quotes and you can make anything seem possible.
1847- On July 26, The Liberian Declaration of Independence was adopted and signed. In it, Liberians charged their mother country, the United States, with injustices that made it necessary for them to leave and make new lives for themselves in Africa. They called upon the international community to recognize the independence and sovereignty of Liberia. Britain was one of the first nations to recognize the new country. The United States did not recognize Liberia until the American Civil War.
And your point is? Other than confirming what I said?
Which speech? He gave so many in support of segregation that there isn’t enough bandwidth to support them all.
The speech that quote came from. I realize you get all your stuff off of Lost Cause websites but the fact that they are all part of larger documents or addresses. The one in question came from Lincoln's speech on opposition to the Kansas-Nebraska Act and was given in Peoria in October 1854. Look it up if you don't believe me.
How about this one. I will anxiously wait your response as to how this is taken out of context. Note the date, the Eulogist and the WHOLE paragraph...
And the point of it is what exactly? I've never denied Lincoln's support for voluntary colonization, only your claim that he wanted to forcibly remove them. And I don't see anything in there that contradicts my point or supports yours.
Yet another Lost Causer pot-meet-kettle moment. Y'all are just so cute when ya got your dander up.
But...but...but...you said that Africa was uninhabitable. That getting sent there was a death sentence and Lincoln was a monster for even suggesting it.
To reiterate, the survival rate had improved a great deal between the time Abe started agitating for it, with his hero and idol Clay, who had been pushing it for years and years earlier and this great turn of fortune happened for the man THANKS TO THE LEE FAMILY.
It improved a great deal in a year???? Lincoln's eulogy was in 1852, the Burke's emigrated to Liberia in 1853. Did it continue to improve for 6 years until Mrs. Burke was writing about how much she loved Africa, then take a nose-dive in 1861 when Lincoln was inaugurated?
“But...but...but...you said that Africa was uninhabitable. That getting sent there was a death sentence and Lincoln was a monster for even suggesting it.”
No, you said that. I said that Lincoln was a long time supporter of the scheme. See Clay’s eulogy and Abe’s glowing recommendation of it from the time it was literally a death sentence (uninhabitable) to the point where I described it as “somewhat habitable.”
By the way, I consider liberal San Francisco somewhat habitable too.
“It improved a great deal in a year????”
No, once again, that was not what I said, but OK ... let’s play your lying nitwit game of changing meanings and posting shit that you make up. Yes, things can change dramatically in a year.
Has America changed much in the last year?
No, you said that. Reply 361 in response to my pointing out that people came to an inhospitable land to settle North America. Your response, and I quote, was "Except things grew here ... and it was habitable ... BIG difference." If the difference between Liberia and the North American wilderness was that the later was habitable then that must mean the other was not.
Like I said. Your claim and not mine.
I said that Lincoln was a long time supporter of the scheme.
He was. His first quotes in favor of it date from 1852. Just a year before Lee was sending the Burke's off to that unihabitable 'sh*thole'.
See Clay’s eulogy and Abe’s glowing recommendation of it from the time it was literally a death sentence (uninhabitable) to the point where I described it as “somewhat habitable.”
Again, Lincoln's eulogy to Clay dates from 1852, the 'uninhabitable' stage. The Burke's emigrated to Liberia in 1853, apparently when it was 'somewhat habitable'. What changed in a year?
By the way, I consider liberal San Francisco somewhat habitable too.
I'm sure you're very comfortable there.
No, once again, that was not what I said...
Yes it is. In fact you repeated it in the post I'm currently responding to. Don't you read your own stuff? Or are you just that ignorant of the topic you're trying to discuss?
Yes, things can change dramatically in a year.
So what changed so radically in Liberia between 1852 and 1853?
Has America changed much in the last year?
Try to stay on topic please.
“And the point of it is what exactly? I’ve never denied Lincoln’s support for voluntary colonization...”
This was not a speech that included the word voluntary. And neither was the other speech. And neither are the many others he made that you know are out there. Keep lying.
I don’t know why you NEED to defend him, BUT YOU SURE LOOK DESPERATE. I’m gonna go play golf now. You stay here and try to rewrite some more history for us. I’ll be back to laugh at you some more.
I was not in favor of slavery.
“Of course you aren’t. But if true, then that must mean you were in favor of keeping an entire race in the country as non-citizens without any rights at all since that was the condition that free blacks were in, thanks to a Southern Supreme Court chief justice. So...where is that all that much different than slavery?”
Get a little mustard for that pretzel logic of your, Boo Boo.
Let me guess, you teach lefty college students and can baffle them with bullshit all day long and think you can do it here, too? Or is it the idea that your precious “Great Emancipator” was just another pol that got swung hard by the leftists of his day and didn’t stand up to them?
They HAD to force a crisis ... you know, something too good to waste? ... and kill half a million American soldiers (the southern soldiers MUST have been Americans, cause you insisted they were), 100K+ (approx.) of CIVILIANS, when the whole world abandoned slaving within the next decade?
You really are stupid. You act as if there was no other choice but “slavery forever” instead of your war of aggression that destroyed a Republic. Congratulations, you won. The Republic was scrapped. That’s working out pretty well for all of us.
The Constitution shredded and we are enjoying a wonderful relationship between the races. Especially in the North, where the freedom loving northerners welcomed all the black refugees with open arms. Especially in New England.
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