Posted on 07/23/2010 8:53:29 AM PDT by Argentine-Firecracker
Roughly 50 men and women in the Warsaw Ghetto chose a special form of resistance. In a secret archive, they documented their path to doom for future generations, chronicling the Nazis' crimes as they were being perpetrated.
David Graber was 19 when he hurriedly scribbled his farewell letter. "I would be overjoyed to experience the moment when this great treasure is unearthed and the world is confronted with the truth," he wrote.
While German soldiers combed the streets outside, Graber and his friend Nahum Grzywacz buried 10 metal boxes in the basement of an elementary school on Nowolipki Street in Warsaw's Jewish ghetto. It was Aug. 2, 1942.
(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...
Try to keep in mind, we’re dealing with Nazi recruitment, not the historical origins of anti-Semitism, no matter how dear the subject may be to you. Indeed, I empathize with your situation and the hurtful comments you may have received.
If I were to reverse positions, as you seem to desire, then we have to conclude that the German public did not see Karl Marx, Fredrich Engels, Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht for whom they were. In addition, easily accessible websites will enlighten you regarding the preponderance of communist party founders, leaders, members and sympathizers. Are you really saying that Nazis never used anti-Bolshevik propaganda to attack Jews? If so, we have a profoundly different read on history. For me, that hopey-changey stuff doesn’t work.
Surely, you could imagine that a group long-suppressed might choose not to waste the Russian governmental crisis of 1917 to throw off the czarist yoke and take control of their lives while banning competitive religions by introducing atheism. Among contemporary historians, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn‘s writings would also be an excellent source for you to consult—before he was condemned in this country for being factually (read, politically) incorrect.
As for the Ukrainian Holodomor, the film “Harvest of Despair 1933” speaks for itself.
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Consideration of what?
There is no question about this. Given the especially careful expression of your thoughts, it is particularly shameful to throw such a heavy accusation at you. You speak up for unspoken victims and tell us what we should know but don't. And you do that without minimizing anyone else's suffering. I am really sorry to hear that you've been subjected to such disparaging remarks. Those accusers should be ashamed of themselves, in my humble opinion.
You must've written this in jest. I gave you a detailed description and can provide scholarly sources (written, incidentally, before the Holocaust) about the transformation and of anti-Semitism in France and German lands since the Enlightenment. You betray no knowledge of it whatever. Sorry, in my study of history, I rely on source more thorough than "websites," which may explain why, indeed, "we have a profoundly different read on history..."
As I mentioned earlier, you are both factually incorrect and at odds with logic:
"we have to conclude that the German public did not see Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels, Emma Goldman, Alexander Berkman, Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht for whom they were."
Not only Karl Marx was not Jewish --- he was a vicious anti-Semite. The Marx family had descended from a long line of rabbis, invited to Trier (from northern Italy, according to some scholars) centuries earlier. His father was a product of his times, wherein many Christians, both former and practicing, started to speak out against the centuries-old prosecution of the Jews in Europe, and many Jews reciprocated by abandoning Judaism as "their part" towards unity. Karl's father was very proud of Prussia, then the most enlightened state in German lands, and wanted to be more Prussian that the Electors. (You will see Marx grocery today if you visit Trier). Wanting to be a "typical Prussian," Marx senior he has formally converted to Christianity and baptized his entire family. That happened when Karl was 5 or 7 years old (I don't recall at the moment). Karl Marx not only grew up in a Christian family but felt a constant need to disassociate himself from his Jewish forefathers. In the process, he has become a vicious anti-Semite. Like all "enlightened" anti-Semites, he did not say "burn the kikes in the ovens" but "explained" why Jews deserve the treatment they get and why Judaism should be entirely eradicated (yes, that too was well before Nazis; as you can see, the "logic" of the websites you visit is quite old).
In turn, Friedrich Engels had not a drop of Jewish blood in him. None. Zilch. Most uneducated anti-Semites give themselves away very quickly by claiming, as you do, that Engels was Jewish. The myth of Engels' Jewishness started even when Engels was alive. ( I vaguely recall reading his own bewilderment at this idea, but cannot recall the source to go back and verify.) It is a complete falsehood, invented and maintained by generations of people trying to portray socialism and communism as Jewish inventions --- never mind the Gallic Leroux (who is credited with the word "socialism" itself), Proudhon (who was the first, rather than Marx, to say "Proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains") and Saint Simon, the British Owen, or a Russian noble Bakunin. To make communism Jewish, anti-Semites disregard all of the above and claim that Marx and Engels are Jewish. And you are sending me to these fighters for truth to educate myself? No thank you.
The remainder in your list of names is correct: there were indeed many former Jew in the ranks of socialists, anarchists, and communists. But they were prominent in all spheres of life, ever since the Enlightenment that gradually allowed them to participate in public life,. By some caclulations, one third of all Nobel Prizes in science have been awarded to people born into Jewish families. This phenomenon has an easy explanation. Subjected to European anti-Semitism, both codified and informal, Jews could either disappear or sharpen survival skill by being good at what they do. They had not disappeared, and learned to excel. Children, even today, are subjected to very high expectations of achievement. This is the second factor: the millennia-old habit of learning and reasoning. For most of history, that learning was focused on religious texts, which is why you don't see much of contribution to philosophy and science before the Enlightenment (with a few exceptions such as Maimonides and Spinoza). The Enlightenment both allowed and motivated Jews to direct the same habits to science, philosophy and public life. The contributions in these are therefore quite thus recent. [That this has a lot to do with European conditions may be seen also from the fact that practically none of the scientific contribution in recent years came from Asian and African Jews; learning in Bukhara, Iraq, etc. continued to focus largely on religious texts.)
Strive for excellence manifested itself in recent America history as well. At the turn of the XX century, the immigrants from Russia and Eastern Europe were the most backward, lacking knowledge of any European language and even basic hygiene. They lived 8-12 people to a room on the Lower East Side of Manhattan, and most worked 12 hour shifts in the garment district. In 1916, a New York newspaper questioned whether "the Oriental mind of a Jew is even capable of grasping the subtleties of Western civilization." No, it was not anti-Semitism at all; it was indeed easy to think that when looking at the backward mass of humanity that immigrant Jews constituted at the time. Well, in late 1920s, just a decade later, the children of those immigrants comprised about one third of the student population in the elite schools of America --- Yale, Harvard, etc. It is a curious fact but the "diversity" criterion in admission was actually introduced by Ivy League schools as "defense" against Jewish applicants, who outscored others when judged solely on grades (as Asian students do today). The President of Yale College is on record saying that, to wit, "There is no question that, absent urgent measures [movement away from grades-only criterion], the vast majority of students at Yale will be Jewish in the next few years."
In sum, Jews excel for historical reasons. When they leave Judaism, some of them devote their lives to good things and some to bad --- just like their formerly Christian counterparts.
Some of the former Jews excelled in communist and anarchist parties, lured by the promise of equality. In the early 1800s, Christians promised acceptance if Jews leave Judaism, and many Jews responded by converting in droves. By late 1800s, many Christians abandoned their own religion for socialism and atheism, and and, many Jews responded to the new criterion of acceptance, adopting various forms of socialism. Those that did, excelled in that evil enterprise, just as many of the former Christians.
Jewish participation in the leftist parties is the only thing anti-Semites choose to see, however, and dismiss contributions of other Jews. This is a logical fallacy (pars pro toto, taking part for the whole), one of the oldest known. But they cannot arrive at their conclusions otherwise; having first arrived at their conclusion --- Jews are "bad" --- there is nothing else they can do but distort logic and manipulate facts in order to arrive at the desired conclusions.
"Try to keep in mind, we're dealing with Nazi recruitment, not the historical origins of anti-Semitism,"
This is another, purely logical, error. I too was speaking of Nazi recruitment and not of the origins. The point was that angering the public against Jewish Communists was only a small part in the anti-Semitic recruitment. That recruitment had been ongoing for several decades. Even for Nazis that was just one item on the menu: One of their greatest campaigns was against "Jewish bankers" that supposedly conspired to create the 1929 stock market crash. As you can see, Jews were simultaneously capitalist pigs and anti-capitalist communists --- makes a lot of sense, doesn't it?
You are apparently unaware that, according not only to Nazis but also to German "scholarship" of the times, Jews have started WW I. Having done that, moreover, they conspired to ensure the Germany's loss in that war. But evil Jews have not stopped there either: they subsequently ensured that the Versaille treaty would be particularly humiliating for the Germany. Impeccable logic, isn't it? Jews start the war to profit from it (note: not just the rich Jews, not even banker-Jews, but all Jews, which are collectively guilty) but then they somehow profit from the opposite, from the Germany's loss in the war they themselves have started.
But suppose for a moment that loss in a war is profitable for the Jews (and somehow only to them). Then how can the opposite --- victory in the same war --- be profitable for the French and British Jews? Simultaneously, the same Jews that supposedly live only for profit abandon not only profit but all private property and promulgate communism, of which they are also guilty. A thinking person could get dizzy right here: a claim cannot be true and false at the same time. But who can accuse anti-Semites and other bigots of thinking or respect for truth?
And, if Jews started WW I for profit, how come 12,000 German Jews died for their country in that war? Apparently those patriotic Jews did not get the message. In one the ironies of history, Corporal Adolph Hitler received the awarded to him Iron Cross from the hands of a Jewish officer.. (But Jews don't fight for their countries, claimed the Nazis. It's a popular myth in Russia, too, that Soviet Jews did not fight in WW II). Isn't it stupid, to start a war for profit and then die? Jews are again both devilishly smart and completely stupid: they go war for profit and lose their lives --- some bargain! All "deep" logic of anti-Semites is of such pathetically banal and shallow kind. Today, the same Nazi propaganda is promulgated on Russian websites, often by accredited scholars, which "prove" that the 1917 Communist Revolution was the "Jewish enterprise." It's the double standard, with which the view history --- one criterion for the Jews and another for the rest of humanity --- and the manipulative selection and misrepresentation of facts that gives those bigots away. You are in a bad, bad company, my friend.
"Surely, you could imagine that a group long-suppressed might choose not to waste the Russian governmental crisis of 1917 to throw off the czarist yoke and take control of their lives while banning competitive religions by introducing atheism."
Even if you took a basic course in college, you would learn that atheism and weakening of religious faith in favor of reason is the central theme of the Enlightenment. People like Voltaire are more responsible and reflective of this phenomenon than any Jew, whether German, Russian or Polish. This all happened well before the Russian revolution, and well before even the invention of socialism.
In addition, to speak of Jews as a group is both false and grossly misleading. Revolutionaries born into Jewish families, just as revolutionaries born into Christian families, did not act as Jews or Christians: they acted as socialist revolutionaries. This is true of the Russian Communists as well as German Nazis (who were atheists and pagans for the most part). Formerly Jewish communists burned synagogues with the same fervor as they did Christian Churches. Chechen Communists burned alive (see, e.g., Avtorkhanov) Chechens that did not want to submit. Ukrainian Communists were on the forefront of finding Ukrainian "kulaks" and deporting them to Siberia. And, National Socialist (Nazis) sent to concentration camps Catholic priests. In all such cases, regardless of their origin --- whether Christian, Jewish or Muslim -- socialists acted as socialist rather than in the name of their parents' respective faiths. It is also false and misleading to speak of "a group long-suppressed might choose not to waste." commissars born into Jewish families did not act as a group. There were no coordination among them. The view of their behavior as a group action is a conspiracy theory, one of many offered by anti-Semites. Today they point to Jewish names in Hollywood and talk of "Jewish Hollywood" (how come devilishly smart Jews allowed anti-Semites such as Mel Gibson or Oliver Stone to become famous and rich? Ah, they are both smart and stupid again). They point to Jewish names on Wall Street (never mind that Italian names are even more numerous) and speak of Jewish conspiracy to hijack the financial system of the world (how come all those Jews lost handsomely during this recession? Those devilishly smart Jews are quite stupid indeed). They point to Rham Immanuel and other Jews that serve the president and claim that we fight wars for Israel rather than America. I am sure, your favorite website have more such theories.
Needless to say, Jewish investment bankers act as finance professionals, just as Jewish programmers act as IT professionals, and Jewish teachers act as teachers. Just as Italians and Norwegians, Protestants and Catholics, they act in this context as individuals, not as a group. Jews act as a group only in the synagogue, and at bar mitzvahs and funerals --- just as Christians do in churches, at Confirmations and Christian funerals.
"Among contemporary historians, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's writings would also be an excellent source for you to consult"
Thank you for the reference. I have already read most of Solzhenitsyn's works.
In conclusion, let me just say that I understand that conspiracy theories, whether about "Jewish cabal" or "Bush perpeted 9-11," may be seductive. It is a duty of any intellectually honest person to study carefully the facts and alternative explanations. You have not. Even without your pointers to websites it was very clear that you have shortchanged yourself by limiting your study to intellectually vacuous sources.
For a Christian, or any simply goodhearted person, this also poses a moral dilemma. You would not condemn, I presume, a person who seems to have perpetrated a murder if the evidence is insufficient. You would not do that as a Christian, because of the commandment not to serve as false witness. You would not do that as an American:: our courts require not even preponderance of evidence but going "beyond reasonable doubt." Having any amount of reasonable doubt, you'd let someone you suspect of murder go free. You depart from these standards, however, in your views of Jews and history in general. What I wrote above should give you more than reasonable doubt. (If you'd like, I'll point you to much more thorough sources --- on Karl Marx, German history prior and up to the Holocaust, etc. Most certainly, you can find many more yourself). If you are intellectually honest person and/or a good Christian, you'll pursue that investigation --- and suspend judgment on these matters until then.
Thank you. I don’t see sympathy for those murdered as a pie; That more sympathy for one group neccessitates a smaller “slice” for another. Hitler chose certain groups to die first-the Jews, then Gypsies, and then the Slavs. In the end all were to die in his perverted world. It was DFWgator who was accused of anti-semitism though, not I.
Not to repeat myself from another thread, but for the benefit of those on this thread:
Your reports are wrong. Stalin's father was not Jewish and he was a former Georgian Orthodox Seminary student. Only his last wife, Rosa Kaganova was Jewish. And had he lived any longer, most Soviet Jews would have been sent on a death march to the Amur river valley.
How about this. 20% of Polish citizens (6 million)d ied in WW2. 10% were Christian (largely ethnic Poles, but also other Christian minorities). Another 10% were victims of intentional genocide, being Jewish.
I notice taht you don’t mention that under the formerly Russian Orthodox Lenin, Jews were also targeted. I wonder why?
Considering that the Crimear Tatars, Chechens joined the Germans, I don’t cry. Not that communists separated victim from culprit. While a few hundred Krimchaks (Tatar Rabbinic Jews) survived the Holocaust, only a few dozen returned from Siberian exile.
I used to think so, too. But we Americans joined with Communist Russia to defeat what we thought was a greater, or at least more immediate, evil. Seems to me that the Chechens and Tatars did the same. As you probably know, the Russian tsar, using the post-Napoleonic mood in Europe, marched into the Caucasus and simply annexed those territories. Chechens never submitted to that regime --- much less so that even the fierce Georgians and others. Crimea had similarly been for centuries the Tatar territory. These people tried to exchange one set of occupiers, who already showed their colors, for another set, which they hoped could not be any worse. Western Ukrainians and Russians joined Hitler's armies for the same reason. For many years I viewed them as scum, but now I think I was too simplistically judgmental.
How do you presume to excommunicate any Jew who is a vile leftist?
Jews are 80% Democrat and they were 60% of the Politburo.
They are some of the bloodiest killers of all time.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html
What are you suggesting here:
“In sum, Jews excel for historical reasons. When they leave Judaism, some of them devote their lives to good things and some to bad...”
Do you realize that you are stating that only Non Jews are capable of evil?
Lenin had a Jewish grandparent and said that any smart Russian is Jewish Russian.
Lenin and his sidekick Bronstein (Trotsky) targeted mostly Ukrainians Christians , German Amish, German Mennonites and other fundamentalist Germans who were invited to Ukraine by Catherine the Great.
Lenin and Trotsky killed about 1.5 million of them starting in 1921.
http://library.ndsu.edu/grhc/order/general/famine.html
I don't know the percentage, but it was high. As I said, in the earlier post, Jews tend to excel. Fortunately, when they turn to good things, they excel in those. Unfortunately, when they turn to bad ones, they excel in those, too.
TQ: “In sum, Jews excel for historical reasons. When they leave Judaism, some of them devote their lives to good things and some to bad...”
kingcoal: "Do you realize that you are stating that only Non Jews are capable of evil?"
Do you realize how disconnected are those two sentences? I've never suggested such a preposterous thing and would never agree with such a statement. In fact, I stated the opposite (and repeated it above): Jews who abandoned Judaism committed heinous crimes, burning synagogues and churches with the same fervor, and torturing Jews with even greater fervor than Gentiles to prove their loyalty to the new religion -- Communism.
I forgot who made this observation: "Jews are just like any other people, only more so."
Lenin and his sidekick Bronstein (Trotsky) targeted mostly Ukrainians Christians , German Amish, German Mennonites and other fundamentalist Germans who were invited to Ukraine by Catherine the Great.
The heart of White Russia was brutally suppressed. What is your point?
And this tells us... what exactly?
Only for people like was it well founded. Normal people hate the perps because they were Communists. You hate them because they were Jews.
Communists born into Jewish families were no more Jewish than Communists born into Christian families. But some people, like you, Hitler and many current Russian nationalist, believe that once a Jew always a Jew. It does not matter that Karl Marx was raised in a Christian family and hated Jews --- following Hitler, you'll call him a Jew.
According to you, even being married to a Jewess explains the evil in some man.
I wonder if you consider yourself a Christian. I'll have a good laugh if you do.
Mostly? By what measure? ,P> "who were invited to Ukraine by Catherine the Great. Germans who were invited to Ukraine by Catherine the Great."
Germans lived in Russia well before that. Read something about the childhood of Peter the Great or Hanseatic League.
Thank you for showing how dishonest you are. The same book you reference says in the same paragraph that Lenin probably did not know that one of his grandmothers was Jewish. Nor did his sister, as the book says in the same paragraph. If they did not know, of what significance is that fact, then? As I said earlier, to you and Hitler, it is the genetic defect: the fact that one of Lenin's grandmothers was Jewish --- and clearly had forsaken Judaism and Jewish culture, for otherwise Lenin would know that she was Jewish --- explains Lenin's ideology.
You also lie when you attribute that claim to Lenin. Nowhere in 55 volume of Lenin's work can this statement be found. It was a famed author Gorky who claimed to have heard that from Lenin. The very next paragraph of the book you link begins with the words, "We do not know whether Lenin actually said this."
It was clear from your post that you are rabid anti-Semite. THank you for revealing to us that you are also a liar. As shown above, you are not interested in discussion; your posts are nothing but propaganda of your racist ideology.
Chechen SS auxilaries were all to happy to help round up Jews and kill anti-Nazi partisans in Eastern Europe. My father has first hand experience.
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