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US rifles not suited to warfare in Afghan hills
US rifles not suited to warfare in Afghan hills ^ | May 21, 2010 | AP

Posted on 05/22/2010 11:58:33 AM PDT by too_cool_for_skool

KABUL, Afghanistan — The U.S. military's workhorse rifle — used in battle for the last 40 years — is proving less effective in Afghanistan against the Taliban's more primitive but longer range weapons.

As a result, the U.S. is reevaluating the performance of its standard M-4 rifle and considering a switch to weapons that fire a larger round largely discarded in the 1960s.

The M-4 is an updated version of the M-16, which was designed for close quarters combat in Vietnam. It worked well in Iraq, where much of the fighting was in cities such as Baghdad, Ramadi and Fallujah.

(Excerpt) Read more at google.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: afghanistan; banglist; guns; m16; m4
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To: JayVee
The old BAR was capable of select fire but tipped the scales at 20 lbs.

The select-fire feature was dropped from the BAR design fairly early. My Father-in-Law carried one in the Marines in Korea. Full-auto only.

61 posted on 05/22/2010 5:25:38 PM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: rlmorel
The officer (I think he was a USMC Major) opined that it highlighted the Soviet approach to soldiering...the magazine was more valuable than the life of the person firing the weapon...it was more important not to lose the magazine than it was to enable the soldier to reload faster.

What get's lost on threads like this about the virtues of this combat rifle or that round, is that the soldier and his rifle, combined with the training, makes for a complete weapons system.

We seem to accept this in more mechanized weaponry, but when the main component is flesh & blood we tend to forget.

62 posted on 05/22/2010 5:30:52 PM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: Screaming_Gerbil

SCAR in 6.8.

That’s all you need.


63 posted on 05/22/2010 5:44:07 PM PDT by ImJustAnotherOkie (zerogottago)
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To: too_cool_for_skool
Designated marksmen in each SQUAD with one of these babies in semi auto: HEAD SHOTS AT 600 METERS all day long...
64 posted on 05/22/2010 6:20:07 PM PDT by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: SF_Redux
give them Napalm, and the delivery system for it
let them have BBQ’s

“Tough sh*t, pagans, BarBQ rules!”

hinckley buzzard; May 18, 2010
(http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2516164/posts)

Although the comment was not originally made in reference to jihadis, I would have to suggest that it applies...

;>)

65 posted on 05/22/2010 7:25:32 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
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To: JayVee
The M-4 is a cut-down M-16. In making it more compact for urban warfare, a good deal of velocity was sacrificed, further reducing the effectiveness of a marginally effective round.

Excellent point! If I remember correctly, the current 62 grain bullet will fracture at the cannelure if it impacts with enough velocity, which at least gives you two wound tracks from each hit. The M-16 will therefore have a better chance of getting the job done (in terms of terminal ballistics) in any given situation. Maybe we should at least look at putting M-4 buttstocks on flat top M-16s and split the difference (the Canadians have or had a model like that)...

66 posted on 05/22/2010 7:41:36 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
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To: All

Israel is transitioning over to their new Tavor rifle. It’s a bullpup configuration so it’s short enough for urban combat, but still has the longer barrel for accuracy. The interesting thing about it is the sight, which is built into the barrel. The sight and barrel are one unit. Haven’t seen one up close.

The Tavor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5Z5e8CUUM


67 posted on 05/22/2010 8:13:58 PM PDT by Walvoord
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To: All

Longer clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N7X0pvhQ4w


68 posted on 05/22/2010 8:43:29 PM PDT by Walvoord
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To: Jack Hydrazine

Precision with a stock AK is not going to happen.


69 posted on 05/22/2010 8:56:55 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: The Comedian
I really don't understand the mentality of people who buy AR-15 variants.

It's a decent platform IMO and with the right ammo it's plenty lethal out to 600 yards. The problem in the sandbox is our guys aren't using the correct ammo.

A 62 grain soft point bullet moving at 2000 fps makes a hell of a mess. The nice thing about being a civilian is that one isn't constrained by those stupid JAG rules that say only FMJ ammo can be used.

Is the .308 superior? No question it is. There are two .308 platforms in my safe. But I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to hump one up and down the mountains of Afghan land.

IMO, and no one listens to the likes of me, platoons and squads should carry a mixed bag of weapons. The majority of rifleman could have that M-4, but there should be at least a couple of 7.62 platforms on hand for designated marksmen.

And we have to get away from those stupid rules about the bullet. Replace that crappy SS-109 'penetrator' round with a soft point or hollow point. Screw the Hague Convention....

70 posted on 05/22/2010 8:58:44 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: rlmorel

You want Ka-Boom!?

Moisin Nagant. 7.62 x 54.

Ka-Boom!


71 posted on 05/22/2010 8:59:35 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: too_cool_for_skool
For later read.

Never understood the wisdom in using a round considered underpowered for deer.

72 posted on 05/22/2010 9:56:37 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: too_cool_for_skool

When did an AK-47 develope a greater effective range than an M-4?


73 posted on 05/22/2010 9:56:44 PM PDT by sig226 (Mourn this day, the death of a great republic. March 21, 2010)
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To: Lurker
IMO, and no one listens to the likes of me, platoons and squads should carry a mixed bag of weapons.

I agree but the Loggies hold all the cards. They aren't going to introduce another infantry round to the TO&E of an infantry company. Special Forces, different story.

74 posted on 05/23/2010 7:47:01 AM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: Eagle Eye
The milled receiver AK models are plenty accurate.

A lot of this arguement comes down to terrain. I live in hills. 300 yards is the next ridge...500 yards is the ridge after that, but you can't see it.

75 posted on 05/23/2010 8:32:47 AM PDT by gundog (Outrage is anger taken by surprise. Nothing these people do surprises me anymore.)
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To: sig226
When did an AK-47 develope a greater effective range than an M-4?

It's not the AK's that are the problem. The problem is the RPD and similar series of machine guns that are chambered in the 7.62 X 54R cartridge. They have a much longer effective range than our M4 rifles.

The Druganov series of 'precision' rifles are also chambered for that cartridge. While they can't hold a candle to a bolt action platform in terms of accuracy, they're plenty good enough to engage our guys outside their envelope of effective fire.

L

76 posted on 05/23/2010 8:40:31 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: gundog

And the world’s supply of AK’s doesn’t include a great percentage of milled receivers, does it?

They are well suited to peasant insurgents who don’t have or need marksmanship training, not suited to well aimed shots at even 200 yards.

But one’s mileage may vary.


77 posted on 05/23/2010 8:51:13 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: Eagle Eye
They are well suited to peasant insurgents who don’t have or need marksmanship training, not suited to well aimed shots at even 200 yards.

Even the sheetmetal receivers that I have are a potent threat at 300.

78 posted on 05/23/2010 8:59:19 AM PDT by gundog (Outrage is anger taken by surprise. Nothing these people do surprises me anymore.)
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To: gundog

I have seen well trained soldiers unable to hit consistently at less than 200 yards, so yeah, the bullet may accidentally hit something at 300 years and is a potential threat.


79 posted on 05/23/2010 9:17:38 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: Lurker

They’re comparing the RPD to the M-4? We have the semi auto RPD for sale where I work. While I suppose that a very large insurgent could carry it uphill along with a couple of drums, it is essentially a crew served weapon.


80 posted on 05/23/2010 6:10:32 PM PDT by sig226 (Mourn this day, the death of a great republic. March 21, 2010)
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