Abortion, Again: Do Babies Feel Pain?

RW News ^ | April 20, 2010 | Melissa Clouthier

[NYer]

Nebraska heats this topic up again. Embarrassed about being the late-term abortion capital of the United States, Nebraska changed the law:

Can an unborn child feel pain?

That question will dominate the abortion debate in America for the next several years thanks to Gov. Dave Heineman of Nebraska. Last week, Heineman signed the Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act into law, banning abortions in Nebraska at and after 20 weeks based on growing scientific evidence that an unborn child at that age can feel pain.

The legislation was enacted as a defensive measure. After the murder of late-term abortionist George Tiller, a physician named LeRoy Carhart declared his intention to carry on Tiller's work at his Bellevue, Neb., clinic. State legislators did not want Nebraska to become the country's late-term abortion capital -- so they voted 44-5 to stop him.

The new law will probably spark a Supreme Court showdown, because it directly challenges one of the key tenets of Roe v. Wade -- that "viability" (the point at which an unborn child can survive outside the womb, generally held to be at 22 to 24 weeks) is the threshold at which states can ban abortion. In defending the law, Nebraska will ask the high court to take into account scientific research since Roe and push the legal threshold back further.

I have written about this before, from a very personal place. My sons were born at 24 weeks, could feel pain, and felt pain more than the doctors and nurses wanted to admit. Not long after my son left the NICU, the hospital changed a policy on heel sticks (given repeatedly and daily without anesthesia) because they were so painful to the child.

This was a "duh" decision to me: I saw my sons silently scream and writhe to get away (they were intubated) every day during the procedure. Of course they felt pain. Only a moron couldn't see that self-evident fact.

Do babies feel pain en utero? Yes. For years, doctors have noted that babies avoid ultrasound. No one quite knows why, but it's suspected that the ultrasound waves are at the very least, uncomfortable to them. So, ultrasounds, while performed routinely, are carefully meted out by the best professionals, because they do know that ultrasounds stunt growth and interfere in other ways. If the baby avoids it, there must be a reason.

My thought is that unborn babies are more, not less, sensitive to pain. It just makes sense. Their nervous systems are raw and unrefined. They live in a fluid-filled cushion bubble for heaven's sake. I figure it's because the insulation deadens the sensations--the sound, touch, sight, etc.--needfully. The experiences would be too intense otherwise.

The fact is, it makes sense that these tiny humans feel acutely. And anyone who has seen a tiny baby, with a beating heart, cannot fathom that they don't feel pain. It is an exercise in denial to haughtily imagine that they are little lumps of protoplasm feeling, learning, expressing nothing.

It is inconvenient to imagine a baby as a mini-human. If the baby is a mini-human, the baby has civil rights and should be protected.

As the science gets more refined, I expect that people are going to be horrified at what has happened to unborn children. Or, they'll sink deeper into their denial--no one wants to perceive himself as a murderer, little less a pain-inflicting murderer.

[avoth]

“Do you have any idea how many women die (or could die if they didn’t abort the baby) a year due to carrying a baby to term?”

No, do you?

“Plus, your contention that you have no problem with abortion as long as you don’t have to pay for it, and your statement that abortion is fine if it saves the woman’s life seem to be mutually exclusive.”

I don’t see that, but am fine with you having that point of view.

“And for you to attack other people for having an attitude that you don’t like is pretty arrogant, when your attitude couldn’t be more abrasive and rude.”

I don’t see how I “attacked” anyone, but if you do, OK.

Thanks, and have a nice day.

[ArrogantBustard]

Are any of you old enough to recall the days when young girls got their abortions in the back alley?

I'm old enough to remember the time when the radical pro-abortion crowd claims that happened. Like most of their claims, that one is contrary to the facts. Would you like to return to those days?

Yes. Abortion is a shameful, evil, murderous act and should not be sanctioned by the "law".

[BCR #226]

100% of successful abortions result in death. If you have to “win hearts and minds” over a proceedure that is designed to kill a child then our society is a lost cause. And whether you like it or not, you must face the fact that a baby dies for the poor choice of the mother and/or father. Instead of encouraging abortions like Planned Parenthood does, we should be encouraging bringing in another life to our world. How many Einsteins or Tesla’s or Hawking’s have been murdered this way? Can you imagine the possibilities had one such not been murdered but instead were brought welcomingly into our world? Think of what we might be missing out on because of the arrogance of those who choose to murder a child?

Remember, your mother chose life for you. Cherish that. there are millions of children who’s parents chose to murder them instead of giving them the chance to know life. This is the true culture of death.

[wagglebee]

I have a feeling that deaths from ALL surgical procedures pretty much followed the path of this chart:

The drop in abortion deaths had NOTHING to do with legality.

[avoth]

“I’m old enough to remember the time when the radical pro-abortion crowd claims that happened. Like most of their claims, that one is contrary to the facts. Would you like to return to those days?”

OK, so no abortions ever happened before it became legal? Yeah. It never happened.

“Yes. Abortion is a shameful, evil, murderous act and should not be sanctioned by the “law”. “

Well, good luck.

[little jeremiah]

I don’t know, I was wondering if you knew, since it seemed important to you enough to mention it.

The main reason I know for a pregnancy to lead to the mother’s death is ectopic pregnancy, and I am for those to be terminated or aborted, as it leads to the death of the baby as well.

You know quite well about your abrasive and harsh attitude; it’s your problem and not mine. Ahd if you don’t realize what you are up to, self-delusion never leads to a good result.

[Emmett McCarthy]

OK - I’ll keep it simple. Ultrasound technology and DNA testing - which were not available in ‘73 at the time Roe was handed down - make it indisputably clear that the unborn child is a seperate and distinct person. As such, that person has the same rights and protections under our Constitution that you or I do. Roe has been proved false by science and advanced information. Your other red herrings are irrelevant. Good day.

[wagglebee]

I believe that the spikes in the 1960s and early 1970s correspond with the increase number of abortions (doctors starting performing a lot more abortions, even though it was illegal, in the decade before Roe). With any surgical procedure complications lessen the more they are performed.

[avoth]

“100% of successful abortions result in death. If you have to “win hearts and minds” over a proceedure that is designed to kill a child then our society is a lost cause.”

You may be right, but it seems like giving up to me.

“And whether you like it or not, you must face the fact that a baby dies for the poor choice of the mother and/or father.”

I disagree. We SHOULD face the fact. A lot of those who are getting abortions don’t despite your insistence that they “must”. I think our society is at the point where there is no shame attached to it and those who choose abortion are contemptuous of those who say they “must” face certain facts. Feel free to disagree.

“Instead of encouraging abortions like Planned Parenthood does, we should be encouraging bringing in another life to our world.”

I would prefer to encourage responsible choices that lead to someone bringing life into the world who’s prepared to handle it.

“How many Einsteins or Tesla’s or Hawking’s have been murdered this way?”

How many Hitlers, Arafats, or Obamas have been murdered in this way? Please.

“Can you imagine the possibilities had one such not been murdered but instead were brought welcomingly into our world? Think of what we might be missing out on because of the arrogance of those who choose to murder a child?”

Do I really need to turn this around?

“Remember, your mother chose life for you.”

BINGO. She CHOSE. Not you, not me, and not society.

“there are millions of children who’s parents chose to murder them instead of giving them the chance to know life. This is the true culture of death.”

And how are you going to change that? By declaring it to be illegal? By calling those who perform abortions, “murderers”? By picketing outside abortion clinics with signs and pictures that disgust and horrify?

I know you’ll agree that you and other pro-lifers are in a war and that millions of unborn children are murdered every day. Do you honestly believe that you’re winning the war with your methods? If so, I wish you luck. But I think you’re losing and the methods you’ve employed thus far have only escalated the conflict.

[avoth]

“You know quite well about your abrasive and harsh attitude; “

Yeah. Everyone else, including you, has been as sweet as pie.

“it’s your problem and not mine.”

Yes, your behavior is totally beyond reproach.

“Ahd if you don’t realize what you are up to, self-delusion never leads to a good result.”

Again, thanks for the unwanted advice. You’ll notice that I didn’t offer you any.

We’re done.

[avoth]

“OK - I’ll keep it simple. Ultrasound technology and DNA testing - which were not available in ‘73 at the time Roe was handed down - make it indisputably clear that the unborn child is a seperate and distinct person. As such, that person has the same rights and protections under our Constitution that you or I do. Roe has been proved false by science and advanced information. Your other red herrings are irrelevant. Good day.”

Thanks. Not one single thing you posted has anything to do with any of my points. Let’s try and avoid each other in the future, OK?

[avoth]

“Look...I am an “Equity Feminist”..(as apposed to being a militant feminist like the left)..okay...I know abortion is about one thing and one thing ONLY $$$$$$$$$$MONEY$$$$$$$$$$”

OK. I respect your point of view, but think it’s a bit more complicated than that.

[avoth]

“I have a feeling that deaths from ALL surgical procedures pretty much followed the path of this chart:”

That’s fine. What are your feelings about how successful the pro-life movement has been and will be in making abortion illegal again? What happens after that?

Think the pro-choice movement is going to roll over and die? Or will the hatred and vitriol increase?

[wagglebee]

Not one single thing you posted has anything to do with any of my points.

The only "point" you've made is that you are 100% PRO-ABORTION. You tried to make NARAL's "point" about "back alley" abortions, but that has been thoroughly debunked.

Let’s try and avoid each other in the future, OK?

Free Republic is a PRO-LIFE CONSERVATIVE forum, trolls like you stick out like sore thumbs.

[wagglebee]

Think the pro-choice movement is going to roll over and die?

They are killing of their future as we speak.

Or will the hatred and vitriol increase?

The hatred and vitriol is from the pro-murder crowd and that includes YOU.

[avoth]

“Free Republic is a PRO-LIFE CONSERVATIVE forum, trolls like you stick out like sore thumbs. “

And another winner heard from.

Yes, you’ve convinced me.

Bye.

[avoth]

“The hatred and vitriol is from the pro-murder crowd and that includes YOU.”

I can feel your love.