Posted on 04/21/2010 10:05:24 AM PDT by NYer
Nebraska heats this topic up again. Embarrassed about being the late-term abortion capital of the United States, Nebraska changed the law:
Can an unborn child feel pain?
That question will dominate the abortion debate in America for the next several years thanks to Gov. Dave Heineman of Nebraska. Last week, Heineman signed the Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act into law, banning abortions in Nebraska at and after 20 weeks based on growing scientific evidence that an unborn child at that age can feel pain.
The legislation was enacted as a defensive measure. After the murder of late-term abortionist George Tiller, a physician named LeRoy Carhart declared his intention to carry on Tiller's work at his Bellevue, Neb., clinic. State legislators did not want Nebraska to become the country's late-term abortion capital -- so they voted 44-5 to stop him.
The new law will probably spark a Supreme Court showdown, because it directly challenges one of the key tenets of Roe v. Wade -- that "viability" (the point at which an unborn child can survive outside the womb, generally held to be at 22 to 24 weeks) is the threshold at which states can ban abortion. In defending the law, Nebraska will ask the high court to take into account scientific research since Roe and push the legal threshold back further.
Let me ask YOU a question -
do you believe extra/pre-marital sex
increased or decreased after abortion was
legalized for all stages of pregnancy?
In that case, there’s nothing further to discuss.
Have a nice day.
“You present the same lame arguments that the pro-abort folks do - basically that somehow the world as it exists must be corrected before we stop the wanton slaughter of the unborn. I don’t know whether you’ve been “duped” or not as one poster suggested, but at least you have been made aware that folks here aren’t duped by your circular arguments.”
Actually, I haven’t made any arguments at all. But thanks for your response.
” * Failure to provide on the part of the poor is not the issue facing the majority of women today. There is a huge safety net to provide for them, and this is not a barrier to delivering a baby.”
No argument. Not my point.
“A number of studies done on this issue point to pressure by the father of the child as being the primary reason many women chose an abortion. Strong women, or women in loving relationships, are far less likely to consider an abortion than those in casual or destructive relationships.”
Agreed.
“* Your question presumes facts not in evidence. What methods are you referring to, and what ammunition?”
When those on our side call names, throw blood, show horrible pictures, murder abortion doctors, blow up abortion clinics, etc., etc., etc., those who support abortion rights use that against us. Given that the media, education system, and entertainment industry are squarely on the side of abortion with no holds barred, I find the methods mentioned above to be counter-productive.
“* Your question also presumes that changes in social mores and norms have had no direct impact on how abortion is perceived, but that the failure to stop abortions somehow rests solely on the pro-life movement. This is false.”
Your presumption is incorrect. Of course changes in social mores have had a direct impact. But the issue for me is not failure to stop abortions but to achieve a goal that both sides should applaud - to get more people to make responsible choices, including abstinence. In other words, eliminate the need for abortion in the first place.
“* Moral relativists have tried repeatedly to diminish the moral impact of abortion (and other issues) by shifting the debate from “morality” to “legality.” An entire generation has been reared with the belief that if it’s not illegal, it’s okay (or even, if it’s illegal, but you don’t get caught, it’s okay).”
Not part of my argument at all.
“* Moral relativists have already repeatedly shifted the debate by “dehumanizing” the unborn child. This tactic is very effective (and is used through the military) to make it easier to be the instrument of death for another human being.”
Again, dehumanizing the unborn child was never part of my argument.
“* Bills such as this are the perfect tool to combat both, by not only drawing another legal barrier to abortion, but emphasizing the very human quality (experiencing pain) into the debate.”
Somewhere you’ll have to point out my opposition to the bill.
“* Moreover, the frequency of abortions in the United States did not happen instantaneously following Roe V. Wade. First, the law changed; then hearts and minds. This is ultimately how the pro-life movement can swing the pendulum back towards the sanctity of life; by law, then hearts and minds.”
Some hearts and minds were changed well in advance of the law, were they not?
” Sure I did and supported it with facts.”
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this point.
“Without moral absolutes, there is chaos. That is what we see exhibited in the world around us when people abandon those norms. “
And who gets to decide what the moral absolutes are?
“Let me ask YOU a question -
do you believe extra/pre-marital sex
increased or decreased after abortion was
legalized for all stages of pregnancy?”
I believe it increased substantially.
Anything else?
” Uganda Winning the Battle Against AIDS — Using Abstinence “
Oops. Missed this point. Uganda is not the US and what works in one environment with totally different societal norms will not work in another.
I have a 22 yo daughter. Do I want her to have pre-marital sex. No, and I hoped I raised her so that she wouldn’t want it either. But that’s all I can do. If, G-D forbid, she got pregnant, would I want her to keep the child (assuming it didn’t endanger her life)? Of course. And I would use any argument I could to get her to see that, and I would hope to temper that argument with respect for her and love for her as my daughter. But if she said that she was getting an abortion, would I throw her out of the house and forbid her from returning? Would I call her all kinds of names? Show her these pictures, etc.? I hope not.
It’s a life-altering situation any way you look at it, and I’d like to avoid it in the first place.
Do you believe in the sanctity of human life?
Do you believe that abortion is the legalized murdering of an unborn human ?
If no, please explain why.
“Do you believe in the sanctity of human life?”
No. I believe in capital punishment.
“Do you believe that abortion is the legalized murdering of an unborn human ?”
Yes.
Yes.
Thanks for responding.
So you support the legalized murdering of an unborn human?
If yes, how do you reconcile that with basic conservative values?
“So you support the legalized murdering of an unborn human?”
As I’ve said, I support the legalized murdering of an unborn human when the life of the mother is endangered by the pregnancy.
“If yes, how do you reconcile that with basic conservative values?”
My basic conservative values places greater weight on the life of an existing human being than the life of the unborn child.
In other words, if my daughter (G-D forbid) was pregnant and carrying the child to full term would be fatal to her, I would definitely do anything I could to get her to abort the child.
If you don’t think I’m a Conservative or that I’m a shallow person, etc., because of that then what can I say besides, “Have a nice day.”
So, if Congress or your state government passed a law making it legal to euthanize your mother or grandmother because their illness was placing too big of a financial burden on the system, or they were using a critical piece of medical equipment that was needed to save the life of someone much younger and more economically productive, would you be in favor of that legalized murder as well? Again, thanks for responding.
“So, if Congress or your state government passed a law making it legal to euthanize your mother or grandmother because their illness was placing too big of a financial burden on the system, or they were using a critical piece of medical equipment that was needed to save the life of someone much younger and more economically productive, would you be in favor of that legalized murder as well? Again, thanks for responding.”
Sorry, I don’t see how your question is relevant to anything I’ve said. You’re welcome.
Abortion: The pagan sacrifice of an innocent childs life for the sins of the mother and father.
Sorry, abortion is a sick and depraved side of our culture that needs to end. A baby can in no way defend itself from the terror of it’s death and remember, every successful abortion is fatal. A return of morals would be a better solution and restoring responsibility vs. an “easy” cheat on life.
Abortionists are akin to people that torture puppies for their own amusement as far as I’m concerned. Both need serious mental help and should be locked away for good.
“Abortion: The pagan sacrifice of an innocent childs life for the sins of the mother and father.”
Perfect example of what I’m talking about. I’m sure you’re going to change a lot of hearts and minds with this.
“Sorry, abortion is a sick and depraved side of our culture that needs to end.”
I disagree. Abortion is a tool. What is sick and depraved, IMHO, is the dehumanization that leads so many to use the tool.
“A baby can in no way defend itself from the terror of it’s death and remember, every successful abortion is fatal. A return of morals would be a better solution and restoring responsibility vs. an “easy” cheat on life.”
On this, we totally agree.
“Abortionists are akin to people that torture puppies for their own amusement as far as I’m concerned. Both need serious mental help and should be locked away for good.”
And this charge will help in the “return of morals” that you claim to seek?
I don’t see how defining abortion as you have, or likening abortionists to puppy torturers, is going to change the mind or heart of a single person who may be on the fence regarding abortion. Do you honestly think it will?
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An American baby is murdered EVERY 24 SECONDS and you're paying for it in higher taxes whether you realize it or not.
How can you call yourself a conservative and support the MURDER of 52 MILLION INNOCENT AMERICANS.
Are any of you old enough to recall the days when young girls got their abortions in the back alley? Would you like to return to those days?
Abortion deaths dropped when modern antibiotics were developed, the so called "back alley" abortions NEVER really existed.
Denouncing them, violence against them, etc., doesn’t work.
You've been listening to the left for too long.
The anti-abortion crowd needs better solutions and more self-control because it’s not achieving the results it truly wants, i.e., people to act more responsibly regarding sex and conception.
The real problem is people like YOU who have no regard for human life.
Do you have any idea how many women die (or could die if they didn’t abort the baby) a year due to carrying a baby to term?
Plus, your contention that you have no problem with abortion as long as you don’t have to pay for it, and your statement that abortion is fine if it saves the woman’s life seem to be mutually exclusive.
And for you to attack other people for having an attitude that you don’t like is pretty arrogant, when your attitude couldn’t be more abrasive and rude.
“An American baby is murdered EVERY 24 SECONDS and you’re paying for it in higher taxes whether you realize it or not.
How can you call yourself a conservative and support the MURDER of 52 MILLION INNOCENT AMERICANS.”
Wow....you’ve totally changed my mind. Thanks.
“Abortion deaths dropped when modern antibiotics were developed, the so called “back alley” abortions NEVER really existed.”
You’re absolutely right. No girl ever got rid of a baby before we made abortion legal.
“You’ve been listening to the left for too long.”
Yeah.....that’s it.
“The real problem is people like YOU who have no regard for human life. “
Again, thanks so much for changing my mind.
You have a nice day.
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