Abortion, Again: Do Babies Feel Pain?

RW News ^ | April 20, 2010 | Melissa Clouthier

[NYer]

Nebraska heats this topic up again. Embarrassed about being the late-term abortion capital of the United States, Nebraska changed the law:

Can an unborn child feel pain?

That question will dominate the abortion debate in America for the next several years thanks to Gov. Dave Heineman of Nebraska. Last week, Heineman signed the Pain Capable Unborn Child Protection Act into law, banning abortions in Nebraska at and after 20 weeks based on growing scientific evidence that an unborn child at that age can feel pain.

The legislation was enacted as a defensive measure. After the murder of late-term abortionist George Tiller, a physician named LeRoy Carhart declared his intention to carry on Tiller's work at his Bellevue, Neb., clinic. State legislators did not want Nebraska to become the country's late-term abortion capital -- so they voted 44-5 to stop him.

The new law will probably spark a Supreme Court showdown, because it directly challenges one of the key tenets of Roe v. Wade -- that "viability" (the point at which an unborn child can survive outside the womb, generally held to be at 22 to 24 weeks) is the threshold at which states can ban abortion. In defending the law, Nebraska will ask the high court to take into account scientific research since Roe and push the legal threshold back further.

I have written about this before, from a very personal place. My sons were born at 24 weeks, could feel pain, and felt pain more than the doctors and nurses wanted to admit. Not long after my son left the NICU, the hospital changed a policy on heel sticks (given repeatedly and daily without anesthesia) because they were so painful to the child.

This was a "duh" decision to me: I saw my sons silently scream and writhe to get away (they were intubated) every day during the procedure. Of course they felt pain. Only a moron couldn't see that self-evident fact.

Do babies feel pain en utero? Yes. For years, doctors have noted that babies avoid ultrasound. No one quite knows why, but it's suspected that the ultrasound waves are at the very least, uncomfortable to them. So, ultrasounds, while performed routinely, are carefully meted out by the best professionals, because they do know that ultrasounds stunt growth and interfere in other ways. If the baby avoids it, there must be a reason.

My thought is that unborn babies are more, not less, sensitive to pain. It just makes sense. Their nervous systems are raw and unrefined. They live in a fluid-filled cushion bubble for heaven's sake. I figure it's because the insulation deadens the sensations--the sound, touch, sight, etc.--needfully. The experiences would be too intense otherwise.

The fact is, it makes sense that these tiny humans feel acutely. And anyone who has seen a tiny baby, with a beating heart, cannot fathom that they don't feel pain. It is an exercise in denial to haughtily imagine that they are little lumps of protoplasm feeling, learning, expressing nothing.

It is inconvenient to imagine a baby as a mini-human. If the baby is a mini-human, the baby has civil rights and should be protected.

As the science gets more refined, I expect that people are going to be horrified at what has happened to unborn children. Or, they'll sink deeper into their denial--no one wants to perceive himself as a murderer, little less a pain-inflicting murderer.

[xzins]

Alamo averrs avoth is aborted!

Awesome!

[Alamo-Girl]

LOLOL!

[mlizzy]

To the "recently aborted" avoth:

I'm sorry Free Republic felt the need to ban you. You obviously care about children and their mothers. The organization you make charitable donations to in Israel is an incredible model for Americans to follow as well.

I've taken to heart your suggestion to tone down the rhetoric, and I've written an e-mail to our parish in Chicago asking for the usage of a photograph that was taken outside of their church on Easter. It's a beloved pro-Life shot if ever there was one (an image of two Missionaries of Charity sisters holding the hands of a beautiful little African-American girl as they playfully pick her slightly up and help her down the stairs), and if they give me the okay, I'm going to reproduce it and bring it to the entrance of Planned Parenthood.

The pro-Life souls on this site -- who most frequently comment -- seem to be a very good group of concerned people; I only really know a couple. But I'm not convinced most of them (and I hope they don't) truly know abortion's pain. My guess is somehow (whether directly or indirectly) that you do. (I enjoyed talking with you.)

[xzins]

See post #101

All of Avoth’s points are pro-abortion talking points.

[Emmett McCarthy]

Well, that’s exactly the message and content of the song I referred you to. Many of us have made the mistakes, some of us willingly, some not so much. My small part is to tell the truth about myself and maybe free another person from that “hell of secrecy” which is where satan (whose name I intentionally refuse to capitalize) wants us. Isolated, frightened and unforgiven. Not seeking a way out because we can’t even see or admit that we’re there.

[wagglebee]

All of Avoth’s points are pro-abortion talking points.

And most of them were debunked decades ago.

The entire line about women dying in "back alley abortions" was a HOAX, it never happened.

As far as being nice to the pro-aborts and having a "dialog" or whatever, the answer is NO. An American baby is killed every 24 seconds, there is no "common ground" or anything else. There is NOTHING to compromise, NOTHING, not now, not ever.

[wagglebee]

You’re right, there are a lot more women then you are aware of and most of them are keeping it a very dark secret. I have a feeling in a few years a lot of the women who have used things like RU-486 will begin to realize the magnitude of what they’ve done. Keep in mind that the estimates on surgical abortions are fairly accurate, but the chemical abortion numbers could be a lot higher than we think.

[rhema]

Could you give us a link to purchase those “choose life” wonderfully bright-green T-shirts?

[mlizzy]

I agree with avoth’s responses for the most part, and I would consider myself to be an avid pro-Lifer. Please see posts #90, #91.

[mlizzy]

Could you give us a link to purchase those “choose life” wonderfully bright-green T-shirts?

*chuckling* Your comment brought me some levity, because, well, my husband and I are known for our, um, t-shirt-frugality, and we participated in the pro-Life walk that handed these t-shirts out for free (here's the video we put together of the event), and we quickly grabbed three, one for each of us, even though by the time we got there, there were only XXLs left. So we have these giant bright green t-shirts, but we wear them proudly. They are also very old now and so worn out, we are hoping that Eric Scheidler sponsors another t-shirt giveaway at one of his walks.

But there are many places online that have wonderful pro-Life t-shirts. I think someday we might even "invest" in one or two. They are a beautiful way to "spark" conversation, and who knows, maybe we even saved a life or two by wearing them. If you get one, wear one to Whole Foods if you like. My husband didn't do so on purpose, and as we walked to the store door, I said to him, "Oh, my gosh, you have one of the Life T's on." It didn't phase him in the least. Another one of those, glad-I-married-this-guy moments.

[rhema]

This one might cause a few grocery-cart crashes at Whole Foods.

[mlizzy]

Ha! You’re getting into the spirit of things.

[jhw61]

WOW, WOW, WOW! I am in tears, I'll never forget seeing my first glimpse of my now wonderful 11 year old son! His Dad punched a high 5 in the air that we were having a BOY, and I was so ecstatic too! His big bright eyes are the treasure I see every day!

[xzins]

Avoth’s own words were, “I have no problem with abortion...”

There is no way on God’s green earth that you can call yourself “pro-life” and also say, “I agree with avoth’s responses...”

Do you agree with that basic, fundamental statement of avoth’s, “I have no problem with abortion...”?

[jhw61]

understood! Yet, I, me and my sister talked, calmly and careingly my neice into NOT aborting her 1st child BUT also her 2nd! She is 31 years old and has 2 wonderful children BECAUSE WE CARED! We told her, don't worry, everything is going to be o.k.. She now profuses she wouldn't no what her life would be without these two beautiful children.. She was married to her youngest child's father last August and he is the father to her 1st born...she was 17 years old and pregnant and confused by her liberal friends to abort...not gonna happen on my watch...Now she is a wonderful married Mom and such a good mother and her husband...such a good father!

I am PROUD that we took a stand and helped her realize everything would be o.k....and it is!!!!!!!!

God Bless!

[wagglebee]

Do you agree with that basic, fundamental statement of avoth’s, “I have no problem with abortion...”?

Excellent question because EVERY statement that avoth made was in support of his/her fundamental premise of not having a problem with abortion.

[xzins]

Mlizzy, I checked out 90 and 91 and it appears that:

1. The liberal avoth forgot he was supposed to act conservative.

or

2. The conservative avoth forgot he was supposed to act conservative.

In either case, he was trolling for reactions and then playing off those reactions. Trolling is a fishing term and not a billy goats gruff term.

[mlizzy]

In either case, he was trolling for reactions and then playing off those reactions. Trolling is a fishing term and not a billy goats gruff term.

I suppose it all depends on your history with the site, as to whether you're considered to be personally attacking, just plain ol' debating, or seriously trolling. (I have been accused of personal attacks on FR, trolling, improper apostrophe usage, and the "F" word has been used against me more than once.)

When I was respectful to Avoth, he/she was respectful back; that's all I can personally ask of someone. If he/she was playing a game, so be it; I always like to initially err on the side of caution ...

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed. Thank you for your insights, dear brother in Christ!