Posted on 02/06/2010 3:31:30 PM PST by The Magical Mischief Tour
DENVER (AP) - The federal courts are wrestling with a question of both liberty and patriotism: Does the First Amendment right to free speech protect people who lie about being war heroes?
At issue is a three-year-old federal law called the Stolen Valor Act that makes it a crime punishable by up to a year in jail to falsely claim to have received a medal from the U.S. military. It is a crime even if the liar makes no effort to profit from his stolen glory.
Attorneys in Colorado and California are challenging the law on behalf of two men charged, saying the First Amendment protects almost all speech that doesn't hurt someone else. Neither man has been accused by prosecutors of seeking financial gain for himself.
Jonathan Turley, a professor at George Washington University Law School who is not involved in the two cases, said the Stolen Valor Act raises serious constitutional questions because it in effect bans bragging or exaggerating about yourself.
"Half the pickup lines in bars across the country could be criminalized under that concept," he said.
(Excerpt) Read more at wkrn.com ...
That's an interesting way of looking at it.
In your opinion, could the government legitimately impose criminal penalties on me if I falsely claimed to be a marine biologist to the guy sitting next to me on the bus? Let's say I'm only making that claim because I want his (brief) admiration, and not for any other reason.
There have been people arrested for dressing like a cop for a Halloween party. The costume was “too close” to a real uniform in the arresting officer’s mind.
Yeah... I can believe that one... knowing some cops... LOL...
But, I would like to know how many have been convicted of this crime of doing that at a Halloween party... :-)
The Stolen Valor Act isn’t about some guy saying he was a SEAL to pick up some floozy at a bar. It’s about guys who wear the medals in an official way, as if they actually earned them.
Yeah, I know what some are doing with them, as I've heard about it... but I'm not sure how much of that should be a crime. There's nothing "official" that "result" from that, in the same way that someone can pull over a motorist in a traffic stop, if one pretends to be a policeman.
With a medal, there's no "authority" attached in the way of "doing something" to something else in an official capacity. That seems, to me..., to be more lying than anything else. And it's stupid and foolish to lie, but if you lie in public or you lie in private -- it's a lie, and that's about it.
But, if you accompany that lie with some kind of "action" -- in other words, if I lie about this medal, then I'll qualify for a higher salary -- then there should be some penalty attached, but that's because you're attempting to gain that higher position and/or pay in a job (let's say) because of the medal. Then, in that case, you fire the guy and/or make him pay back the extra pay (for that medal, if this were a real example) -- and that takes care of it.
I don't see it quite as criminal. If you lie on a job application about going to school and getting a degree -- you get fired -- but you're not in the slammer for doing that.
I would imagine that there are variations on that theme, because if you say you got a degree at a medical school and attempt to operate in a hospital operating room, then that kind of lie should be criminal, because it can result in the loss of lives, for someone unqualified operating on someone and killing them.
You go to a Vet reunion wearing a CIB, you better darn well have better been in a unit who participated in combat.
I understand the sentiment there, but that's not a legal matter, although it might be a "beating-him-up" matter... LOL...
You put a bronze star on a job application? You better have the paperwork to back it up.
On a job, if it's affecting being employed, then you should get fired. But, let's say you state you're a Christian, but you're not... you're a Mormon, instead... whoa! they may claim to be Christian but I know they're not... so now who is right... ooops... that was a monkey wrench thrown into that one... LOL...
What I'm saying is that if it's not instrumental in getting hired or part of a job qualification, then it doesn't matter... (and actually they shouldn't bother with it on job applications, if that's the case).
Tell the chubby redhead who has downed 3 apple-tinis at the end of the bar that you earned a medal rescuing your buddy during the Iraq invasion to get her back to your apartment? Knock yourself out.
I guess, for me, it's all about what kind of "official capacity" you are able to "act upon" from that, and then, if it's instrumental and key in something that you are doing, that you could not do, unless you had it...
Otherwise, it's just a "fish story"... if it doesn't make any difference in those categories... [although I do understand why servicemen would be angry about it... and rightfully so...]
ASB: “I think it defrauds those who have actually earned the right to wear those ribbons. “
That’s why I made the point about causing veterans (of which I’m one) discomfort. Sorry, but I don’t think it should be a crime to offend someone.
This is a slippery slope. The US Constitution is either the law of the land, or it’s not. You can’t go about subverting constitutional protections in one case (that you think is worthy) and then start complaining about ignoring it in other cases.
As I wrote, the burden should ALWAYS be on the state, not the individual, to prove something isn’t a protected right. If in doubt, I side with liberty. That sometimes includes allowing things I personally disagree with, because it’s in the greater good of limiting the state’s power.
It is apparent that you are either a fool or never got shot at in combat or else you would not make that statement.
It amazes me the number of “conservatives” here who embrace the idea of thought crimes just as fast as their liberal foes do. Sadly I feel that most here who do it, do so blindly without thought of unintended consequences or the old slippery slope theory.
Regarding the impersonation of cop claims, one must hold ones self out as a LEO, in an official capacity for the purpose benefit or privilege. A cop in georgia once arrested a man for impersonation of a police officer for wearing a “Raid Tee Shirt”, you know the black ones that say POLICE in white letters. Guy was just walking around a mall with his friends.
Cop and department were sued thoroughly, another cop arrested a guy for having a blue line sticker on his car. Guy never said anything at all, infact the video of the traffic stop recorded the cop asking about it, guy telling him he had no idea what it was, it was on the car when he bought it. Cop still arrested him... was a complete circus, cop was fired.
It should be illegal for people to use these medals for great personal gain, financial benefit or privileged preferences granted to the person because of the claim. But to be illegal for such acts a bragging even if technically you gain from the brag in the case of guys lying to a women for a date/sex etc...
The way its written and applied, its thought crime.
I say there is no God given, Constitutional right to deceive, which is the issue before the court.
While I have the utmost respect for our military, I take true offense at what you just said. The application of this law against people for just bragging or possessing/wearing such is thought crime at its finest. And fortunately for the rest of free America, people much smarter than you and clearly more level headed and calmer than you will make that determination. I agree with the person you quote, folk who wear them are pathetic people and need to encounter a pack of Marines in a dark alley. But to call someone a fool because they do not support a law that is clearly being used to punish thought is beyond the pale.
Jacquerie: “I say there is no God given, Constitutional right to deceive, which is the issue before the court.”
You seriously want to make lying a crime???
It’s no wonder we have ever increasing government, because as soon as someone is offended (or lied to), it’s time to write more laws!
I'm a fool because I don't believe in criminalizing lies when there is no intent to deceive and no detrimental reliance?
Please explain why you think I'm wrong.
BTW, your tag line “We live in a Judicial Tyranny - Mark Levin” implies you prefer to limit government. Are lies not free speech?
I agree with you on equal protection under the law. Look at the thread asking if Muslims should be allowed to become U.S. Citizens.
But in this case, I think there is authority under the U.S. Constitution for Congress to forbid the wearing of ribbons and medals unless actually earned.
The U.S. Congress is the authority when it comes to the Federal Armed Forces. The Constitution gives them this authority under Article I, Section 8:
To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;
Under this authority, Congress has the right to regulate who can wear specific ribbons. This also gives them the authority to say who cannot wear the specific ribbons.
As I said, bragging and shooting your mouth off is not of concern. But the actual wearing of the ribbon does fall under the authority of the laws of Congress under the Constitution.
At least that’s my view of it.
I say there is no God given, Constitutional right to deceive, which is the issue before the court.
Well, about right there, that's when I say, "Whoa! Put on the brakes here!" ... LOL...
If this is going in that direction, in that there is no Constitutional right to deceive, it can go in the direction of since it's not a Constitutional right to deceive, if you deceive anyone in life or tell a lie, that's criminal and we're going to put you in jail...
Well, get ready to build a lot more jails for everyone in this country. Heck, put the fence and the barbed wire around us all, because we're all going to jail...
“Are lies free speech?”
No
As a matter of law, then, do you believe that criminalizing my claim to be a marine biologist (as in my hypothetical in post #21) would be Constitutionally permissible?
As a matter of personal belief, do you believe it is appropriate for the government to criminalize that same claim?
Do you believe there is a God given, Natural Law right to deceive? That is the issue before the court.
The Constitution does not give Congress the authority to regulate marine biologists. It does give Congress the authority to regulate the Military.
Why do you think telling a lie to bar floozie should be Constitutionally protected?
Where, exactly, is that in the Constitution? Next to the part about a constitutional right to an abortion? One of those pernumbra or emination things?
I thought those were just things that a few justices made up on a bad day.
Yes, it’s unconstitutional. I understand the US Constitution isn’t a suicide pact. That’s why “free speech” doesn’t apply to such things as shouting fire in a crowded theater or lying on business contracts.
In this particular case, they were wearing medals that they didn’t earn (could also apply to honest mistakes, like a service member mistakenly wearing an extra device on a ribbon).
No one was financially harmed. The burden is on the state to show there is a compelling state interest in making this particular form of free speech a crime, and even then, the restrictions must be very well defined.
Obviously a lot of folk disagree with me on this, but you either want small government or not. Going around making things crimes simply because they are distasteful or cause someone mental discomfort is NOT small, limited government.
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