Attorney Stephen Pidgeon to Glenn Beck

Tea Party Nation ^

[LorenC]

"The definition of "Natural Born Citizen" that requires both parents to be U.S. citizens is nothing more than a fictional device created by birthers specifically to be a standard of eligibility that Obama could not possibly meet. As such, you'll find this definition nowhere in the Constitution or any established case law."

Wishing this requirement is a "fictional device created by birthers" does not make it so

Here's the short version as to why Drew's right, and the 'two citizen parent' requirement is a fictional device:

1) Obama wrote a book, "Dreams From My Father," wherein he makes it abundantly clear that his father was Kenyan, and not a U.S. citizen. The book was published in 1995. It was re-released in 2004. It was a New York Times #1 bestseller, and the audiobook won a 2006 Grammy award.

Ergo, the fact that Barack Obama Sr. was a Kenyan has been a publicly acknowledged fact for 15 years, and has been a VERY publicly acknowledged fact since 2004.

2) Obama Jr. announced he was running for President in February 2007. He won the Iowa Caucus in January 2008, and clinched the Democratic nomination in early June 2008.

3) Despite the very well-known facts of the senior Obama's Kenyan nationality since at least 2004 if not 1995, and despite a contentious Presidential campaign that began in early 2007, when did people start making the argument that Obama Sr.'s Kenyan citizenship made Obama Jr. Constitutionally ineligible, even though he was born in Hawaii to an American mother?

JUNE/JULY 2008

If the 'two citizen parent' requirement were true, and not a fictional device, it is absolutely astounding that no one realized that this was a straightforward Constitutional bar to his eligibility until almost a year and a half into his campaign, and almost 15 years after he published his memoir. Apparently, we're supposed to think that this simple and obvious fact simply escaped EVERYONE'S attention, including every Obama opponent in the country, until mid-2008 when it was suddenly and inexplicably realized that he'd been ineligible all along and nobody had noticed.

But no, the reason that no one advanced this theory until 2008 was because the 'two citizen parent' requirement didn't EXIST until 2008, and didn't start getting passed around until Obama had locked down the Democratic nomination.

[newheart]

The definition of "Natural Born Citizen" that requires both parents to be U.S. citizens is nothing more than a fictional device created by birthers specifically to be a standard of eligibility that Obama could not possibly meet.

It is decidedly not my intent to cast aspersions at birthers, but I have yet not found anything in the law that clearly defines natural born citizens. Natural born and native seem to be used interchangeably. The only distinction I seem to find distinguishes between citizens and naturalized citizens. A naturalized citizen is one who through some act of the law becomes a citizen. That would demonstrate a clear difference between naturalized and natural-born as 'born' is not an act of the law.

In the U.S. Code: Title 8, 1401 it even appears that someone can be a citizen as long as they were born here, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. The Constitution (of which I have been accused of not supporting) state, "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;"

So the question would seem to hinge on the definition of 'natural born citizen' as opposed to mere citizen and as understood by the founders and, hopefully as interpreted in case law. That is what I am currently looking for and what, for some reason, a few of the folks on this thread seem to be loathe to provide. Preferring instead to call me names.

I would be a happy to see Obama run out of DC on a rail as the next guy but only for reasons that can be supported rationally and in the law. Not simply because I have heard somebody else say he isn't eligible to be president.

Regardless, even if it could be shown definitively that he is not eligible and should therefore be impeached, I maintain that the likelihood of that occurring is close to nil. Given that, there are other areas that ought to be more pressing concerns for someone like Glenn Beck and I think he has chosen them pretty well.

[Man50D]

It is decidedly not my intent to cast aspersions at birthers, but I have yet not found anything in the law that clearly defines natural born citizens.

Below is an explanation of how the definition can be found in the Constitution.

"Natural Born" is declared in Article II [No Person except a 'natural born' Citizen...]

.. and "Natural Born" is implied and expressed in the Constitution as a result of COMMON LAW.

The Common Law in this case goes all the way back to the Magna Carta (over 700 years). "Natural Born" was actually expressed (written) in Vatel's Law of Nations. If you don't know what the Law of Nations said about "natural born" you should. The Founding Fathers did. The Founding Fathers knew exactly what was implied, expressed and common to law when they drafted Article II, the "natural born" eligibility clause.

The Constitution and de Vattel’s Law of Nations has the answer to any questions regarding citizenship abroad and any laws crossing national boundaries:

EXCERPT 1. U.S. Constitution, Article II, §1: No Person except a natural born Citizen, OR a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;

EXCERPT 2: de Vattel’s Law of Nations circa 1758 Book 1, Chapter XIX, § 212: The natives, or NATURAL-BORN CITIZENS, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens…The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.

Finally, the main item in the Constitution that ties both together:

EXCERPT 3: U.S. Constitution, Article I, §8: The Congress shall have Power…To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the LAW OF NATIONS.

LAW OF NATIONS is CAPITALIZED, meaning our framers were citing a proper name. There was only one Law of Nations in 1787 officially declared. And yes, Congress has the power to create and enforce ANY LAW mentioned in the Law of Nations written by Emmerich de Vattel! It was sitting right under our noses the entire time.

[newheart]

Get used to it I am. :-)

[newheart]

Very interesting food for thought. Thanks, Man50D.

[MHGinTN]

See how successful the obamanoids are with their conflation? This poster is asking if Barry is a citizen, when the issue is natural born citizenship! The obamanoids work to create confusion and fill obama eligibility threads with dissonant diversion. It has worked on this poster. And the next phase in the disinformation cycle is to just outright lie and say there is no difference in being a citizen and natural born citizenship ... and it is so very obvious that even the democrat contrtolled Senate believes there’s a difference since they investigated McCain knowing he was a citizen but doubting his natural born citizn status.

[Man50D]

Here's the short version as to why Drew's right, and the 'two citizen parent' requirement is a fictional device:

Read reply #203. Take particular note of Excerpt 2:

EXCERPT 2: de Vattel’s Law of Nations circa 1758 Book 1, Chapter XIX, § 212: The natives, or NATURAL-BORN CITIZENS, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens…The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.

3) Despite the very well-known facts of the senior Obama's Kenyan nationality since at least 2004 if not 1995, and despite a contentious Presidential campaign that began in early 2007, when did people start making the argument that Obama Sr.'s Kenyan citizenship made Obama Jr. Constitutionally ineligible, even though he was born in Hawaii to an American mother?

BO's mother was unable to transfer her citizenship to BO despite being born in the U.S. per federal law:

For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen are required for physical presence in the U.S. to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child).

This means she had to be at least 19 years old (14 years old plus 5 years of U.S. physical presence) to satisfy the legal requirement of Section 301(g) and transfer her citizenship to him. However she was only 18. She was 117 days short from being 19 years old.

[Drew68]

The only distinction I seem to find distinguishes between citizens and naturalized citizens. A naturalized citizen is one who through some act of the law becomes a citizen.

Natural Born and Naturalized are the only two types of citizens as far as the law is concerned. There is no mythical third category of "citizen born in America but not eligible for the presidency due to foreign parents" as many here would like to believe.

You are either natural born (born in the USA) or naturalized (Arnold Schwarzenegger). That is it. Hawaiian-born Obama is natural born. He is eligible for the presidency (as the photos I linked to demonstrate).

And, yes, as President, he is a disaster. Nonetheless, he is eligible.

U.S. v. Kim Wong Ark determined the American born children of foreigners were citizens and Ankeny v. Daniels applied this ruling specifically to President Obama in affirming his eligibility.

[old curmudgeon]

You really think that Obummer, the Marxist now posing as a Fascist, is going to resign willingly?

You really think that Axelrod will resign?

Do you really think Valerie Jarrett will resign just because you find out what is on the birth certificate?

We have a president who has told so many lies that people are counting them and keeping a list as a sport.

He knows that we know that he lies. But yet he is supposed to have so much ability for self examination and so much humility that he will resign because of the biggest lie of all?

You may think so, but I do not.

The man has absolutely no moral compass.

[rxsid]

If he looses the confidence of the joint chiefs of staff? Absolutely.

[rxsid]

"Natural Born and Naturalized are the only two types of citizens as far as the law is concerned."

The Constitution mentions two types of citizens:

"Citizens" as being a requirement for Senator's and Reps.

and

"Natural Born Citizen" as being a requirement for the President and Commander in Chief.

The framers made a distinction in the Constitution.

[rxsid]

"U.S. v. Kim Wong Ark determined the American born children of foreigners were citizens"

Then he's eligible to be a Senator.

[Lurking Libertarian]

There is a difference between being a citizen and a natural born citizen.

Yes, there are two kinds of citizens-- natural born and naturalized. Anyone born in the U.S. is a natural-born citizen.

[MHGinTN]

When the Senate held hearings regarding McCain’s natural born citizenship, there was no question that both his parents were American citizens at the time of his birth. For some reason unfathomable to Drew69, the Senate wanted to confirm the other leg of eligibility in the framer’s sense, whether he was born on American land. So, the stupid Senate was following the Vattel definition in their hearings, I wonder why Drew 69 and his butties can’t seem to follow that?

[thecraw]

While we are on the topic of fallacies you might want to consider rethinking your ad hominem approach to argument. Get used to it. When their conspiracy theories fall apart under the most cursory examinations, insults and personal attacks are the only cards they have left to play.

Yet oddly all of you Obot anti-birthers are drawn to the Birther threads like flies to dog poop...

Now why do you think that is???

[LorenC]

Finally, the main item in the Constitution that ties both together:

EXCERPT 3: U.S. Constitution, Article I, §8: The Congress shall have Power…To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the LAW OF NATIONS.

LAW OF NATIONS is CAPITALIZED, meaning our framers were citing a proper name. There was only one Law of Nations in 1787 officially declared. And yes, Congress has the power to create and enforce ANY LAW mentioned in the Law of Nations written by Emmerich de Vattel! It was sitting right under our noses the entire time.

First, your capitalization argument is priceless. You do notice that in the same sentence where "the Law of Nations" is capitalized, the words "Piracies and Felonies," "Seas," and "Offenses" are also capitalized? And that's just in that sentence; there are dozens of nouns in Section 8 that are capitalized. Are you proposing that they all are referring to proper names, or just the one?

Second, for the sake of argument, let's assume your interpretation of Vattel's statements on citizenship inheritance are correct. Moreover, let's assume for the sake of argument that since the adoption of the Constitution, that interpretation has been the correct one when it comes to Constitutional interpretation of "natural born citizen."

So, assuming both of those to be true, why did it take a year and a half of primary campaigning for ANYBODY to realize and argue that Obama was Constitutionally ineligible based on his father's citizenship? How did the entire country, all of conservative America, and the entirety of Obama's Democratic opposition simply slip up and fail to apply this standard, even though all the relevant facts were publicly known, and had been published in Obama's own memoir in 1995? If it was the standard test before summer 2008, why did no one use it or even mention it before summer 2008? Why did it suddenly appear only after Obama clinched the nomination and after Obama put his birth certificate online?

[LorenC]

When the Senate held hearings regarding McCain’s natural born citizenship,

Once again: there never were any Senate hearings regarding McCain's eligibility. None.

The ENTIRE extent of Senate debate over McCain's citizenship was one question, asked by Patrick Leahy, and one single-sentence answer, from Bush's Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff. During an unrelated Judiciary Committee hearing, the transcript of which runs 42 pages long. There was never any inquiry into "whether he was born on American land." McCain was never asked by the Senate to produce a birth certificate or anything else.

I don't know why people keep falsely claiming there were hearings, when the Senate record makes it so clear that there were none.

[6amgelsmama]

I do know there is a difference between natural born citizenry and citizenry. But if O’s mother was not a US citizen, his alleged birth in Hawaii would mean less, and it would lend more credence to the claims of birthers. If she is a US citizen, then her claims of O being born on Hawaiian soil would mean more for his side. That was the reason for my question. I believe nothing that comes from the state run media, nor do I put stock in anything coming from the White House. I am not one of the mindless drones of which you speak. I was attempting to garner additional information about the situation to make a better informed opinion.

[Cacique]

btt

[MHGinTN]

Where Barry Soetoro was actually born has not been legally established beyond reasonable doubt yet. I use ‘Barry Soetoro’ because Lolo Soetoro legally adopted little Barry and made him an Indonesian citizen, and Barry may have used that nationality to garner college entry and college financial aid. There is no record made public yet where Barry ever changed hhis legal name back to Barack Hussein Obama, so he is still Barry Soetoro in my mind. The issue of defining Natural Born Citizen has yet to be taken up by the SCOTUS regarding a presidential candidate or sitting Pres_ _ent, so even that is not settle. And no one —especially not me— has accused you of being a mindless drone. Your query came across as ‘confused’ ...