Posted on 11/04/2009 3:07:13 AM PST by markomalley
“One sided commentary from the queen of conservative spin, if you like that. I prefer truth. Big wins for Republicans last night. NY-23 was a loss for conservatives and a win for rats...no matter how it is spun.”
I really disagree with this. As of the nominations, conservatives had already lost. We had either a rat (D, NY) or a rat (R, NY) as congresscritter. I prefer an honest rat. They don’t provide faux bipartisan cover for bad laws.
That an unknown 3rd party conservative candidate almost pulled this off against millions in spending by Owens and Scuzzy was a minor miracle. And, if headwinds are still with the R’s in 2010, we are well positioned to take that seat back with a conservative. The only price, about a year of having an honest rat instead of a dishonest one in congress. During that next year, Scuzzy’s vote for an R leader of the house would be meaninngless—there’s no way there is a close vote on that. And that’s all she was good for.
Finally, once an R gets elected in an R district, no matter how odious, they tend to keep getting elected. To get rid of her in 2010 in a primary would have picked this same scab, except worse. So had Scuzzy won, we had a high probability of a dishonest rat in that seat for years to come.
My conclusion, big possible gain. No loss at all.
You forgot Biden campaigning on your list.
WE absolutely MUST use the primary process to select the most conservative we can get but then after that we MUST also agree to hang together to prevent every possible RAT from obtaining political office.
There are no honest rats...so let us edit this down to "I prefer a rat." I believe that. rat is the new conservatism at FR. Now be honest with yourself.
really.
Scuzzy would have voted with the GOP 40% of the time. Owen 0%. You still prefer Owen.
Owens will have to run in 12 months and will lose the next go around. NY-23 would have been stuck with DeDe for ever.
Rats don't earn the primary free-ride that we tend to grant to rino's.
We end up with Jeffords and Spector for life. Always fearful that they will finally turn ultimate traitor... instead of issue-by-issue traitor... and finally they do.
At least with a Rat in the seat, a conservative has a clear shot next go round. Had Dede won, we'd be stuck with her for 20 years.
We have a first past the post single member district electoral system.
What that means is that all you have to do to win is get the most votes ~ not even a majority ~ in a district.
The consequences for party politics are profound. The math necessary for winning tends to reduce the number of potentially successful competitors to one or two parties. Coalitions are necessary since, in general, in our society, there's almost never a single voting block that constitutes a majority.
NOTE: (although courts have tried to do that with black voters ~ creating one black Congresscritter and effectively removing the black vote from surrounding districts ~ as if having a black Congresscritter offsets total loss of political influence outside the black milieu).
We end up with districts of all sort dominated by one or the other of the two parties ~ and sometimes dominated by only one (such as is the case in New York districts).
Mathematically, the ideological structure of American electoral politics is called a BI MODAL SADDLE.
So-called "independents" and "moderates" have no clear choice except this ~ if they want their votes to count they have to vote for someone ~ and that someone is going to come from one of the "modes" on that "saddle".
At the same time any so-called "independent" or "moderate" is going to find himself working OUTSIDE the parties without a label. That's probably why you never find an "Independent party boss" (bwahahahahah!)
Sometimes in relatively evenly balanced districts where control passes from one mode to the other on a regular basis it is possible for sufficiently motivated outsiders in the fringe of the bi-modal saddle to toss an election one way or the other. Still, the person they are voting for will arrive in the state legislature, city council or Congress prepared to caucus with one of the two modes in the bi-modal saddle as it is represented at the top of the heap.
So, you ask, what about the RINOs ~ where do they come from?
A RINO (and there are Democrat equivalents) is usually an individual whose ideological inclinations are with the regular Democrats but he or she doesn't fit for social, racial, religious or other reason. Their odds of ever acquiring sufficient backing from their fellow Democrats to run for public office is limited. If the local Democrat "machine" is sufficiently powerful, this sort of potential office holder has few options in our system. He can't just go form a new political party. So, he ends up running as a Republican in a district (or state) with a weak Republican presence.
This person's election as a Republican may give the Republicans CONTROL of a legislative house, or a Congressional house, or the city council. Once control is achieved, the most numerous party then sets the legislative agenda!
NOTE: (Newt Gingrich is in the school of thought that it's more important to get control than to have candidates who adhere to Republican principles, and he was successful at gaining control of the House, but not the Senate. There were entirely too many RINOs in the Senate to ever achieve a stable situation for the Republicans. Hence the Jeffords disaster which set this nation back 150 years).
Rahm Emanuel is a practitioner of the art of gaining control of Congress. He is the fellow who decided the Democrat litmus test should eliminate GUN CONTROL. The Democrats were then able to run pro-gun candidates in weak Republican districts (or where we had RINOs) and take enough seats to control the agenda in the House. That's why we have that horrid Nancy Pelosi in charge).
The Old South sought to eliminate blacks from the electoral process while at the same time maintaining some semblance of democratic process. That's why you had extensive primaries, and then primary run-offs in their old system. Today, with few Democrats left in the South outside of all-black judicially mandated districts, you farely see the run-offs happening but I don't think the laws were changed ~ just the opportunities to run for office.
You can pick up all this stuff from V.O.Key's books regarding parties and politics. It's old stuff ~ some of it nearly 80 years old ~ but he was on top of the situation even then.
Now, back to the "independents" and "moderates" ~ a "moderate" is in the eye of the beholder. For instance, I see no "moderate" Democrat voters. They are all ideologically driven fanatics. And the "independents are usually just Democrats who find it hard to make decisions ~ their bosses should keep close watch over them.
Thank you. rat...It's the new conservatism!
I see you carefully avoided dealing with any of the solid points he raised, and instead went off on your own little tangent.
” If you are intellegent, I believe that you may come to understand my post after a few more election losses”
Since there is little of much intelligence in your post, its not going to be possible to glean any great harvest of intelligence from it, will it?
Meanwhile, about them election losses...in case you didn't hear the news yet, conservatives/Republicans actually won in the biggest elections last night, in Virginia(which 0bama carried), and in a state that is one of the most strongly liberal and Democratic in this country, New Jersey. Those are strong endorsements for conservatism.
“One sided commentary from the queen of conservative spin, if you like that. I prefer truth. Big wins for Republicans last night. NY-23 was a loss for conservatives and a win for rats...no matter how it is spun.”
It is never a loss when you stand up for what is right!
Hoffman was running against BOTH major parties. His showing in the election is remarkably strong given the obstacles he faced, and a tremendous marker for a coming sea change in American politics.
Then why are you wasting our time responding? I stopped reading here. Others may think it takes a bigger fool to respond to a fool, but I'm still drunk from celebrating GOP(not conservative) victories.
are you still reading my response...you big rat victory celebrating conservative?
tell it to Sen Goldwater, Sen. Santorum, Rep JD Hayworth, Sen George Allen, Rep Richard Pombo, Rep. Curt Weldon, and Rep. Charles Taylor
This one will be kicked around by political scientists for a long time. It was a weird dynamic which makes it difficult to draw any clear conclusions IMHO. But I do agree that a more appealing candidate would have made some difference.
If Newt, Steele and the party establishment would have shut up in the beginning, Hoffman might have pulled it off ...
Because you completely avoided addressing even a single one of the poonts in the post you were replying to, and went off on your own trip instead.
“Others may think it takes a bigger fool to respond to a fool:
Unfortunately, fools sometimes have to be suffered, albeit ungladly.
“but I'm still drunk from celebrating GOP(not conservative) victories.”
Since both two new GOP governors are conservatives (neither of them back abortion, or card check, or gay marriage like your pal Scozzafava), its kinda hard to split one celebration from the other.
make no mistake,
the RINO GOP alleged leaders are happy the democrat won.
the alleged GOP protects their country club
the alleged GOP protects their pay for candidacy contributors.
RINOs just give the left “bipartisan” cover for their radical leftist agenda so they don’t have to OWN the results of their policies.
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