The sting of poverty [would like Freeper opinions about this]

Boston Globe ^ | 03/30/2008

[freed0misntfree]

IMAGINE GETTING A bee sting; then imagine getting six more. You are now in a position to think about what it means to be poor, according to Charles Karelis, a philosopher and former president of Colgate University.

In the community of people dedicated to analyzing poverty, one of the sharpest debates is over why some poor people act in ways that ensure their continued indigence. Compared with the middle class or the wealthy, the poor are disproportionately likely to drop out of school, to have children while in their teens, to abuse drugs, to commit crimes, to not save when extra money comes their way, to not work.

To an economist, this is irrational behavior. It might make sense for a wealthy person to quit his job, or to eschew education or develop a costly drug habit. But a poor person, having little money, would seem to have the strongest incentive to subscribe to the Puritan work ethic, since each dollar earned would be worth more to him than to someone higher on the income scale. Social conservatives have tended to argue that poor people lack the smarts or willpower to make the right choices. Social liberals have countered by blaming racial prejudice and the crippling conditions of the ghetto for denying the poor any choice in their fate. Neoconservatives have argued that antipoverty programs themselves are to blame for essentially bribing people to stay poor.

[freed0misntfree]

What say you fellow Freepers? Is this a good explanation of the persistence of poverty?

[Red Badger]

I was born in poverty.
I was raised in poverty.
I did not like poverty.
So I left poverty.......................

[GeronL]

Do these impoverished have $100 shoes? color TV’s? cable? microwave ovens? What is their definition of “poverty”?

[Tijeras_Slim]

Socio-economic status is one of the prime predictors of IQ.

The behaviors associated with lower IQ are those that tend to promote and sustain poverty.

Particularly with a statist support system that removes the necessity of one being at all responsible for one’s basic survival.

[Tijeras_Slim]

“I was born in poverty.
I was raised in poverty.
I did not like poverty.
So I left poverty.......................”

You and Thomas Sowell.

[Feline_AIDS]

I think the persistence of government intervention, instead of charitable private sectors (like the church), cause poverty’s persistence. To oversimplify, charitable private sector entities would teach a man to fish and give him a few fish to get him started, whereas the government just delivers them for free without any helpful lesson attached. The real problem, then, is the inactivity of the non-poverty stricken in those charitable entities that would help. If it’s Uncle Sam’s job, why should the even bother?

[SMARTY]

Ditto.

My grandmother (who spoke NO English) raised 5 children and succeeded with keeping them all healthy, wholesome and honest.

NO ONE helped her. Not the neighbors, not the church, not the government... it was the Depression and you WORKED. If you can survive in hard times by working, what can't you do in good times living in a society with wall-to-wall assistance for just about any one who applies? I really DO NOT comprehend ANY person/family struggling in America?

[Ben Mugged]

During my 20 years in the Air Force from 1963 to 1983 there was never a year that my Air Force pay was not below the poverty level. The year I retired I was qualified for food stamps. I never took a dime of support and my wife never worked outside the home. I worked part time jobs including mechanic, umpire, bar tender, brick layer, store clerk, pizza delivery, grocery bagger and other jobs. All the time attending college part time. Sometimes working three part time jobs at a time. At the same time I watched fellow airmen take Government assistance and slide into a welfare trap that they never recovered from.

Welfare is a drug that is more addictive than meth.

[DM1]

some figure there is no way out
some are just plain lazy
some dont know any better
some just blame others

[wombtotomb]

I find my tagline is the best answer to this question.

[Brookhaven]

IMAGINE GETTING A bee sting; then imagine getting six more.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Imagine standing there and continuing to allow yourself to be stung.

Imagine running away as fast as you can after the first time you were stung.

[BertWheeler]

The poor are usually troubled by lower IQ’s, lower impulse control and, well, after those two burdens they are also born into a lousy neighborhood where everyone they know is a lowlife and that becomes the accepted way to live.

[Drew68]

Compared with the middle class or the wealthy, the poor are disproportionately likely to drop out of school, to have children while in their teens, to abuse drugs, to commit crimes, to not save when extra money comes their way, to not work.

Let's see. I'm not an expert but I'm guessing that if poor people stayed in school, refrained from having children while in their teens, steered clear of drugs, didn't break the law, saved extra money and went to work, they'd probably move out of poverty.

In short, poverty exists because of the choices made by those who are poor. As has been said, the rich could give all their money to the poor and in ten years the rich would be rich again and the poor would be poor.

[WVNan]

Combination of things. Statist support system for sure. Plus government schools that indoctrinate instead of educating children. The lack of moral core values that were once instilled , if not by parents, by the Christian community. The work ethic and the liberating self-respect which comes from Christianity was the backbone of America until the 60s.

[faucetman]

I was born in poverty.
I was raised in poverty.
I did not like poverty.
So I left poverty.......................

AMEN

[Nathan Zachary]

That's pretty much what I did as well.

I think what happens to a lot of poor people is first, they have a crappy parent, who doesn't instill the best values in the child in the first place, although I didn't have the best parents either. They choose the path of least resistance, look for the easy buck, like selling drugs. Education isn't as fun as getting stoned and selling drugs, so they drop out. Pot smoking may seem "dope" at first, but it leads quickly to developing chronic depression, and later, paranoid schizophrenia. Plus they ten to fall into peer groups already in advanced progression into depression. Before they know it, they are 18 and in jail, and no longer have any hope of going to school, learning anything, and getting a job above floor sweeper.

[Da Coyote]

Overall, the article read well - until the end.

He’s got recommendations, but where are the metrics by which we can judge success?

We need metric descriptions, along with a baseline by which we can judge the effects of changes.

Usually, when I do not see metrics discussed, my “liberal warning” light goes on. Libs don’t like numbers, unless they fake things (aka climate change).

[Patriotic1]

Here’s my thought, although it’s aimed more at the working poor I think.

Poverty and the inherent chronic stress associated with it cause the brain’s wetware to change significantly. Similar to abuse, I think it leads to learned helplessness, which I see as similar to my biological idea. Countless studies have backed up the effects of stress on the brain.

The good news is that the brain is quite resilient and none of the changes are permanent. One write-up (on rats, but still) found that chronically stressed rats (who were acting out in inappropriate ways) had their behavior change in as little as four weeks.

This of course all interacts with general temperament and outlook, as well as other environmental factors.

So, now my very personal take on the above... I believe that given the mix I noted in the previous paragraph, it is hard to determine what, if anything at all would at all work for most people.

Perhaps some are helped by good role models, others by a lucky break, others by a caring person, etc. I do think that what is needed cannot be provided by government, but rather by society. Can we as a society do it? I’m not really sure.

[wbill]

Short answer? Successful people are successful precisely because they do things that make them that way. Ditto poor people. I'm fond of saying that if you could somehow transfer all of the wealth from the top 10% of Americans (the "rich") to the bottom 10% of Americans (the "poor")....within a few years, we'd be back to the status quo.

I found the best reason for this disparity, believe it or not, just yesterday in an Op-Ed. I've not had a chance to chase down the study and see if it's valid. Makes as much sense as anything, though. In a nutshell, much of the issues in society today stem from a lack of two-parent households.

The money quote in the Op-Ed is thus: "In (Ann Coulter's) latest book, "Guilty," she writes that, "Seventy percent of teenage births, dropouts, suicides, runaways, juvenile delinquents, and child murderers involve children raised by single mothers." Coulter cites a 1990 study by the Progressive Policy Institute which found that, "after controlling for single motherhood, the difference between black and white crime rates disappeared."

That's a pretty amazing statistic, and I'm unsure why more people haven't chased it down. Of course, it would skewer a couple of sacred cows - namely race and single mothers - so that might be why. Wouldn't want to risk the wrath of the Great Oprah.

OpEd is here. http://www.news-record.com/content/2009/08/20/article/charles_davenport_too_many_fatherless_children

[snowrip]

Poverty in the US means you have (on average): two color TVs, a home with heat, phone, cable, electricity and hot and cold running water, two cars (per family), and food on the table every day.

Yes, one of the best indicators of individual intelligence is economic status; however, the democrats in the House and Senate appear to be blowing the curve.