The Semi-Permeable Membranes of the Various Protestantisms [Ecumenical]

ic ^ | July 21, 2009 | Mark Shea

[chesley]

The mother of the Lord, yes. The mother of God, no. Can’t buy it; can’t say it.

[Cronos]

As a saved Christian, Christ is the mediator between God and me

Christ IS God. He is not a created being, not an "avatar", not a "lesser god".

Mary is just another sinner who has been redeemed as far as any relationship between me and God is concerned, although you have to admire her faith, far greater than I think that I can claim.

Yes, she had a great faith that we all can emulate and admire.

However, enlighten my ignorance here. As I have said, I know little about the Catholic Church, other than what I have read, including their own literature. What is all this “Hail, Mary” stuff if not worship? What is the point?

Ah, no wonder -- a lot of what is written about The Church by those outside it is just plain hearsay.

Take the "Hail, Mary" being worship.

What is the full wording of the Hail Mary?

Hail Mary, full of grace.
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou amongst women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

Is this worship? No. The Lord was/is with her. She was/is blessed to have borne Jesus, correct? Finally, we ask her to pray for us, we don't ask her to save us (something she can't do as she's not divine).

[Cronos]

The Hail Mary is called the Angelic Salutation, because it begins with the salutation addressed by the Archangel Gabriel to the Virgin Mary. The words of the Hail Mary are partly the Archangel Gabriel's, partly St. Elizabeth's, and partly the Church's. The angel said these words (Hail, full of grace, The Lord is with thee.) to Mary when he went to announce to her, on the part of God, the mystery of the Incarnation that was to be wrought in her.

We are meditating on the life of Jesus. So the repetitions of the Hail Mary are used as a form of meditation. We are honoring Mary's role in Jesus's life and asking her to bring us closer to Jesus.

Yes, God is omnipotent and can very easily handle everyone's prayers. He handles all prayer, including the Hail Mary. He's God. But it's nice to have a personal relationship with Jesus's mother, too

[Cronos]

As God the Son pre-existed Mary, she COULD NOT BE His Mother in the sense that she pre-existed Him, as do most mothers

She WAS His mother, in the sense that she BORE Him, He was borne by her. Is that not true?

She did not pre-exist Him. The Church implicitly says that Mary was a created being, created by God. She did not create or pre-exist Him (she could not have).

He was just passing through, so to speak. She bore the body of Jesus, no doubt, but the Person was the pre-existing Son.

You seem to think that a mother creates a child, NO, God creates the child. The parents are not the creators. in the same way Mary did not create God.

Besides, even assuming that you are correct so far, she was not the mother of the Father or the Holy Spirit. So at most she could be only the mother of 1/3 of God.

Careful -- you're treading on dangerous waters by separating out the Trinity. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE God, we worship not 3 gods, we do not worship 3 aspects or 3 images, we worship ONE God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You seem to think that just by calling Mary Theotokos we grant her divinity. That is WRONG. And The Church says Mary is not in any way divine.

[Cronos]

The mother of the Lord, yes. The mother of God, no. Can’t buy it; can’t say it.

You do realise WHY we call her that, right? As we found during the Nestorian heresy (Nestorius was on the same page as you -- he was a holy man who wanted to defend The Church against the heresy of Arius. Your question comes from a real place, from a person really trying to know God.) to deny Mary the title of Theotokos means either that:

1. The Trinity is made of 3 separate Gods, or
2. There were two separate "persons" in Christ -- distinct from each other, so God did not experience life as a human or
3. Christ was NOT God or
4. He was a created being, a lesser god.


Do you believe in any of those points? I don't think you do. But the denying of the title Theotokos opens up those points as the only alternatives.

Reiterating again -- The Church believes that Mary was / is NOT God, she is a created being, she is inferior to God.

[Cronos]

Here is a good post explaining this

[chesley]

I do not understand that passage in the same way that you do. As I see it, the Rock is that Christ is the Son of the Living God, not Simon Barjona. As for the power to bind and loose, I see no scriptural reference to Peter passing this on to another person. So no, I don’t agree. Also, I’m not sure what it means. The power to work miracles? Peter had that, do any recent Popes or other ministers? naturally, I cannot believe it had anything to do with power over men’s souls, which is God’s perogative.

As for the right to excommunicate in the sense of expelling people from the Church’s society, I have absolutely no problem with that. Baptists do it too (not so much anymore) They call it “disfellowshiping”. Still, if one Baptist Church disfellowships you, you can always join another, if they’ll have you.

But the power of it in medival times was that people believed their souls were in peril because they didn’t get the sacraments. Or so I have been given to understand.

Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to address my questions. AS long as we are in Christ, the other thoelogical matters are of secondary importance, IMO.

god bless you

[chesley]

Thank you, I will take a look at it later and get back to you when I have a little more time

[chesley]

OK, I follow your logic. I still don’t like, or agree with, the terminology.

I DO know that while I was living in the Phillipines I heard one person explain the Trinity as the Father, the Mother, and the Son, so I think there is room for the more uneducated of Catholics to fall into error here, and I think the “Mother of God” phrase can contribute to it.

[chesley]

Careful -- you're treading on dangerous waters by separating out the Trinity. God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are ONE God, we worship not 3 gods, we do not worship 3 aspects or 3 images, we worship ONE God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

That was exactly my point. And if you want to call Mary the "Mother of God", that is certainly your right. I prefer to call her the mother of Jesus. Semantics? Maybe, but that's how I think about it.

[chesley]

Thank you for your explanation

[chesley]

My bad, Christ mediates between me and the Father.

I have also read a lot of literature printed by the Church or affliated organizations. Including a lot from the on-line Catholic Encyclopedia.

Still, I admit I have a lot to learn, which is why I enjoy asking.

cheers.

[chesley]

No, sorry, I just can’t take that last step for the simple reason that regardless of how you believe and what you believe it means, taken at face value it DOES impute superiority to Mary.

[Cronos]

OK, I follow your logic. I still don’t like, or agree with, the terminology.

I can understand -- like most things about God and Christianity, it's not easy for a mortal like you or me to comprehend. However, you then do agree that any other term or understanding can deny the wholly human and wholly divine nature of Christ.

[Cronos]

I DO know that while I was living in the Phillipines I heard one person explain the Trinity as the Father, the Mother, and the Son, so I think there is room for the more uneducated of Catholics to fall into error here, and I think the “Mother of God” phrase can contribute to it.

Yes, no one ever said that the concept of Mary's role as the human mother of Christ was easy -- forget about the extremely complicated concept of the Trinity.

however, you raised a good point -- remember that that belief is NOT the teachings of The Church. Uneducated and simple Christians can fall into error, yes, but they will also be hard pressed to explain the Trinity too, right? That doesn't mean that we dumb down the complexities of God and fall into theological error.

For people who just believe and forget about the explanations, that's very good, but there are more complex theological concepts for us.

[Cronos]

And if you want to call Mary the "Mother of God", that is certainly your right. I prefer to call her the mother of Jesus. Semantics? Maybe, but that's how I think about it.

Semantics, perhaps, do read the link I sent you when you have some time.

[Cronos]

And if you want to call Mary the "Mother of God", that is certainly your right. I prefer to call her the mother of Jesus. Semantics? Maybe, but that's how I think about it.

Semantics, perhaps, please do read the link I sent you when you have some time.

[Cronos]

No, sorry, I just can’t take that last step for the simple reason that regardless of how you believe and what you believe it means, taken at face value it DOES impute superiority to Mary.

you're entitled to that.

Do also note that even the word "Trinity" can impute 3 gods, not a triune god -- even Hindus have a Trinity of three separate gods: Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. So, while words can, at face value, mean something else, there are deeper reasons for the words.

[Mr. Lucky]

On what part of the Athenesian Creed do you think orthodox Lutherans and Catholics disagree?

[chesley]

yeah, I agree. But I can only work with my own understanding. I’m willling to admit that I may be wrong. Heck, we could both be wrong. maybe the atheists are right. But I don’t believe that and neither do you.

I certainly can’t prove the existence of God to another person, although I can testify to Hisworking in my own life. But that’s just anecdotal to a non-believer. Unless the Holy Spirit convicts them, they will not be convinced.