Posted on 06/15/2009 9:47:12 AM PDT by Sleeping Freeper
TEHRAN, Iran - Shots were fired Monday at a rally by pro-reform presidential candidate Mir Hossein Mousavi, apparently by pro-government militia.
An AP photographer said militia fired at the opposition protesters, killing at least on person.
"There has been sporadic shooting out there ... I can see people running here," added a reporter of Iran's English-language Press TV.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
Obviously it would not be worthless for them to know that we have their back. But, we do not have their back. The US cannot participate in overthrowing the government of another country, without causing a multitude of potentially disastrous consequences. We are probably covertly providing support, although we won't hear about that. A regime change in Iran would make Barack Obama look very good to a lot of people who do not know any better. I am sure he wants very much for this to happen. Just think, we would hear incessantly for years how his Cairo speech paved the way for a reformed Iran. Makes me nauseousjust to think about it. Even so, I hope and pray that these students succeed. Freedom is worth. it. But, don't kid yourself. Obama is working to make this happen, just so it makes him look good.
But you're missing one point. Even though he's a punk, a liar and a thug, he still speaks for us, and his silence in the face of the struggle for freedom in Iran is still disgusting.
We have a coward at the helm, and every tinhorn dictator in the world knows it - today more than yesterday.
He has emboldened the thugs with his silence, and that's just not OK with me.
Maybe I'm just not "with it"...........
“Ahmadinejad is empowered and encouraged by Obama’s silence. “
What empowers Ahmadinejad is being anti-American. That is why he is so outspoken against America. Making the US into an enemy is how he rallies his supporters. Convincing people they have a dangerous enemy who wants to take over their government is exactly what he wants to do. It is much easier for him to convince his people that the US is an enemy that requires the most extreme response that it is to convince them that Mousavi is an enemy.
He is empowering EVERY dictator around the world (including Kim Jong Il) and every rigged election in every despotic country in the world.
Whether he's a jerk or not, he should stand up for legitimate elections, for free speech and for the right of the people to protest.
I'm done here, ga medic. We'll never agree on this as long as you support what I consider to be the indefensible silence of Barack Obama.
btw, I know Obama made a “statement.” It was mealy mouthed and meaningless and the equivalent of no statement at all.
The only real effective influence we can have on Iran is to say absolutely nothing. Remain quiet right up to the second we level Tehran. No warning. No threats. Just blow the friggin Shah and his religious government to Kingdom come.
Diplomacy like that is something that all muslims understand.
No not at all.
What empowers Ahmadinejad are the Mullahs and their corrupt elections and the fear they spreed when they shoot and arrest those who dissent.
That is why he is so outspoken against America. Making the US into an enemy is how he rallies his supporters. Convincing people they have a dangerous enemy who wants to take over their government is exactly what he wants to do. It is much easier for him to convince his people that the US is an enemy that requires the most extreme response that it is to convince them that Mousavi is an enemy.
Recent events don't support and in fact contradict your statement.
Our last President vocally supported the protesters and declared the corrupt Iranian government to be part of the Axis of Evil. Yet the people of Iran continue to rally in increasing numbers not against the U.S. but instead against their own corrupt elections and government.
Well said, OWF.
They know the risks more than we do - they are very brave. I will include the student you follow in my prayers.
He actually said he saw what was happening on TV. Isn’t the president “briefed” on matters such as this? This happened before (the NYC buzzing by Air Force One) where he says he didn’t know until he saw it on TV. Does this guy just sit around watching TV? WTH?
Thank you, sir! :)
Maybe, but get a couple 1000s together with molotov cocktails and improvised weapons and they could seriously damage a major city.
A real President Like George W. Bush would have taken the side of the People in Iran. Spoken out in their defense and offered aid and substance to the debate not just empty words.First-term Bush would have.
You're way off base. You're applying western thinking and western ideas to a people who don't think the way we do. They look at life completely differently. To them, western ideas and western lifestyle are the true "bondage". They see "freedom" in a different light. To them, "freedom" means liberation from pornography, laissez-faire capitalism and immorality. To them, we are the slaves.
Why?
Because they have embraced a thoroughly oppressive form of religion which is based on a lie and which leads them to follow error. They profess a faith which does not respect human dignity and which enforces its precepts through threats, violence and intimidation. Democracy, freedom or whatever else we might want to sell them, is completely alien to their whole culture. We're talking about a well-entrenched 1,500 year tradition here.
Islam is their compass, not freedom. This is not Eastern Europe where a long history of Christianity was interrupted briefly by a three quarter century of atheist madness. There the Christian flame still burned. In Iran, we're talking about a place where Islam has been practiced for millenia. They've never been fussed about attaining our version of freedom.
BTW, Obi-wan has now spoken about Iran as I peruse CNN. I'm sure there's some problem with his words, though.
You're way off base. You're applying western thinking and western ideas to a people who don't think the way we do.
Stopping you right there. There is nothing "western" about understanding that we are all made in God's image.
I'm talking about their souls, marshmallow, and not their culture or their (false) religion. I'm talking about the fact that the same God who created us, created them.
I don't think this conversation's going anywhere. You believe that people in the ME don't want to be free. You must also believe that women in the ME like being beaten for showing their ankles.
We are NEVER going to agree on this. Your bias against these people is too strong.
You'll get no argument from me there. But so what?
You need to remember one thing. Being God's creation does not mean we yearn for all that is good and righteous. We're fallen sons and daughters of Adam who are in constant need of God''s grace. We have free will. We can obscure the image of God by our own choices. That's why their longstanding religious culture makes your comments about them yearning for freedom mere pie-in-the-sky.
Furthermore, God made our souls for Him, not for democracy. There's nothing inherently Divine or salvific in the democratic process. Jesus does not imprint our souls with an innate love of pluralistic politics. Try not to confuse our eternal destiny and spiritual principles with American culture.
They're not the same.
Of course not.
And not one word you've said negates a single word I've said. You're arguing a parallel argument, making the points you want to make regardless of what I've said.
No point in this. We disagree. I believe the people in the ME are the same as we are in that they do not want to live in bondage but want the freedom to live as they choose, and you do not.
I do not believe that their culture and religion make them fundamentally, at the core, different from us nor inferior to us, and you do.
We are at an impasse, marshmallow.
But I will leave you with this thought. The people in Iran are proving me right and you wrong. The people in Iraq, living in their Iraqi-style democracy are proving me right and you wrong.
Argue away. I've made all the points I want to make.
“No point in this. We disagree. I believe the people in the ME are the same as we are in that they do not want to live in bondage but want the freedom to live as they choose, and you do not.
I do not believe that their culture and religion make them fundamentally, at the core, different from us . . . .”
I’m jumping into this have read only your post. I haven’t read the article, and I haven’t read the thread. But, I have a thought about what you have said.
Years ago, W made a similar comment about the people in the Middle East — that all people want to live in freedom. I think that you and he are probably right. But that’s not the right question to ask if you are trying to establish a liberal democracy, with freedom for all. The right question is, “Are you willing to respect the right of your neighbor to exercise the same freedom?” Respectfully, Islam doesn’t leave room for other religions, and therefore is not compatible with political freedom, IMO.
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