Did Obama Order George Tiller's Murder? (Article about FreeRepublic Alert)

Bliefnet ^ | June 1, 2009 | Steven Waldman

[Zakeet]

I'm wary of drawing too many lessons from anonymous message board comments. One could certainly pluck comments from Beliefnet's boards to prove that we harbor either right wing or left wing extremists.

But it's worth perusing the message boards of FreeRepublic, a conservative community, to gauge the general mood of the most hardcore conservatives.

First, quite a few people are saying that murder is wrong, no matter how evil the victim was.

SnakeDoc:
Thou Shalt Not Murder. Both the shooter and the victim will be judged.

Patriot preacher:
Pro-lifers should condemn this as antithetical to their philosophy and beliefs. Hopefully, the perpetrator will be apprehended and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I will shed no tears that Teller is gone -- but MURDER is MURDER.

Then a large group is making a more practical argument that this was bad because it will backfire. In fact, a startling large number believe Tiller was murdered by Obama or pro-choice allies in order to justify a crackdown on guns or civil liberties:

upchuck:
This serial-killer piece of excrement will be held up by every abortionist and every lover of abortionists as the reason why the Secret Service needs to be assigned to guard every abortionist,every abortion mill and every lover of abortions in this country.

gridlock:
Obama is going to take advantage of this murder to sieze even more control over our society. I would not even put it past them to commit this murder themselves, as an excuse to sieze power. Reichstag Fire, and all that...

jazminerose:
Will form the rationalization for really stomping on pro life groups. Was it one of BO's storm troopers who pulled the trigger?

Then there's a large number of people who flat-out applaud the killing. I'm going to print a lot of them because it's really unfair to pluck a few extreme quotes off any websites message boards. What's amazing is the sheer volulme of people thinking this way:

imahawk:
One less nazi as far as I am concerned.

Turret Gunner A20:
Hope the guy gets away....Do you think that it would have been murder to assignate Hitler? And don't say that the question has no relevance -- this crud was a leading the killer-of-innocents criminal thugs that has already killed throughout the world far more innocents that Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined. His killer did a great service when noone else would do it.

calico_thompson:
Well, at least the perp didn't rip his arms and legs off and then suck his brains out.

Gaffer:
No doubt this 'man' is responsible for thousands, maybe tens-of-thousands of needless and wanton deaths. If you think his 'passing' is a bad thing in the cause of speaking out and ending the practice of abortion, I don't know what to tell you. I can only say that I shall not mourn his demise, nor shall I judge others.

TheDuke:
But, wasn't this just another late term abortion(?)

Slump Tester:
It's too bad the suspect didn't poke a roto rooter through his skull and then suck him into a vacuum cleaner instead of just shooting the bastard.

SampleMan:
Whether he will be judged as a murderer by God may be an open question, and none of us know the answer. In 1942 Reinhard Heydrich was killed in Prague in cold blood. Czech commandos committed what was by the law of the land murder. They were from a country that had surrendered and they were not in uniform. They did this because he was orchestrating the destruction of the Czech people. Did they kill a tyrant or commit murder or both? There is also the case of course of John Brown and slavery. Yes we must obey our laws, until we can no longer live with the result of not obeying them.

babygene:
killing to prevent a serial killer from claiming his next victim probably doesn't fit into the category of murder...

Cheetahcat:
Nothing to see here just his last abortion this one many trimesters Post Birth.

Ahithophel:
He will till no more in the bloody garden of evisceration.

UnwashedPeasant:
What kind of "church" was this? The Wright kind?

steve86:
I guess the allies should not have killed a single Nazi soldier in WWII?

eccentric:
It is not murder to kill someone to save someone else's life.

353FMG:
The shooter had to kill in order to save the lives of numerous future children. If the shooter is considered a murderer, then so are our brave soldiers. They (the soldiers) have to kill in order to save our lives from the constant threat of terrorism.

mrsmel:
It's too bad, when murderers on the left who really did target innocent people are rewarded and lauded. This man Tiller was responsible for the horrific deaths of thousands of innocent babies, and we are supposed to be shame-faced that someone stopped him in his tracks from jabbing scissors into yet another babies' head and sucking their life out.

and from another thread:

Canedawg:
i wouldnt feel too badly if some of the communists in our govt met a similar fate. That doesnt mean i am about to go around killing anyone, but if someone else does the deed, i wont be crying over the tainted blood of treasonous actors and infanticiders.

Glenn:
How about rejoicing for all the children this "Doctor" will not murder now?

Flintlock:
I tried to get upset about this.
I failed.
My bad, I guess.

stockpirate:
God BLESS the man that killed Tiller.
It is time the left started to feel the wrath of conservatives.
There is a time for peace and a time for war.
Jesus said I came not to bring peace but a sword. Those who beat their swords into plows will plow for those who do not.
A people unwilling to use extreme violence to preserve their liberty deserve the tyrants that rule them. The two phrases are written over the doors of the Justice Department in DC, "Repression breeds violence" and "Where justice ends, tyranny begins"
Certainly the unborn are suffering under the boot of tyranny and are being repressed by the ungodly.
Rightous men have an obligation to change the wanton murder of the unborn.
A nation that allows the murder of the unborn deserves God's harsh judgement.

and this thread:

Lexington Green:
What goes around...

newfreep:
Whatever "church" Tiller attends must be worshipping satan.

IDRATHERNOT:
Tiller Shot & Killed? Thousands of unborn children claim self defense.

wardaddy:
he reaped what he's sowed same as anyone so evil

Sloth:
*shrug* Genocide has consequences.

The Sons of Liberty:
Shooting was too good for him. Too bad his body wasn't torn to pieces like his victims.
May he burn in hell for eternity.

wardaddy:
This guy wa a monster period.
Did you cry when Dahmer got killed in the joint?
Would you worry about Manson?
nothing personal but ya'll are soft as butter.
I make no apologies whatsoever, folks here will be ill prepared for where we're headed.

whatisthetruth:
I'm only surprised this didn't happen sooner, couldn't have happened to a better man, IMO.

P-Marlowe:
If you TRULY believe that Abortion is murder, then you cannot condemn anyone who would do anything to stop this mass murderer from continuing in his crimes. This is where the rubber meets the road. If you call abortion murder, then this was justifiable homicide. If abortion is not murder, then Tiller was the victim of a heinous crime and his killer should be condemned.

mjp:
Sometimes retaliatory force is necessary to stop initiation of force by those who are violating natural rights. Preservation of life and natural rights of the innocent is a natural duty that God requires.

tips up:
If the killer just put scissors into his skull, it would be considered a late term abortion (60+ years late) and he would be a hero of the left, rather than a domestic terrorist.

gscc:
I suppose if Hitler had been assassinated there would have been many "good" Germans who would have looked at the assassin as a "crazy". Let's face it - this country has lost it's soul. We live in a post-Judeo-Christian nation and it will only go down hill from here. There will certainly be many "good" Americans that lament the passing of this evil man. With a federal government, press and apostate "church" firmly entrenched in liberal secular theology we are witnessing the end of the founder's America.

MichiganConservative:
It's abortion in the 272nd tri-mester (ROTFLMAO)
Post-extraction lead-induced termination.

[betty boop]

I'd like to know if I am numbered among the true Free Republic posters or just another long term troll.

I wouldn't worry about that too much if I were you, dear P-Marlowe! Clearly, to anyone with any sense at all, you are not "a troll."

[P-Marlowe]

Clearly, to anyone with any sense at all, you are not "a troll."

Bummer

[betty boop]

I like the way you look at things, muawiyah: You want to start with facts, with evidence, and only then try for conclusions. What a novelty! Most people do that sort of thing the other way around nowadays.

Kudos!!! And stay tuned!!!

[betty boop]

Well, I didn’t say you weren’t cute and cuddly. :^)

[betty boop]

No, it was worse than vandalism; it was an ecological disaster from which Boston Harbor has to this day, not recovered. If you look into the water it still has a brownish tint, discolored by the tea.

LOLOL blue-duncan!!! Sure. That's why Boston Harbor has "brown water" nowadays!!! Ah-YUP. [That means "yes" in down-East Yankee-ese.]

[Actually, the harbor has been significantly cleaned up in recent times, at great taxpayer expense....]

Are you from around hee-yah, that is, frum ahround these pahts? (Boston vicinity)

[betty boop]

But nowhere in scripture will we find support to overthrow the government or to deliberately disobey the rule of law laid out in the Ten Commandments.

Oh, you raise some keen issues HarleyD, and I am so in disagreement with you over your findings as I understand them. But as it's growing late, I have little time to do justice to each of your points right now. So let me pick just one. Let's kick it off here:

Castro's rise to power may have been accomplished in ... a different way but I'm sure the Cubans (at least Castro's followers) would argue that it was no different than the Sons of Liberty. Who's right? It's simply a matter of perspective. [emphasis added]

Here you cite in no uncertain terms the very heart of the doctrine of moral relativism: "It's all a matter of perspective"; i.e., there are no absolute universal moral laws binding on all men at all times. Which in the end conduces to the understanding that "moral behavior," even "truth" can be established by means of a public opinion poll.

It's funny how some people blame moral relativism on Einstein's relativity theory. Which would be a confession of ignorance about what Einstein actually said. In 1905, in his world-transforming article on Special Relativity. The key insight for our purposes here is that every observer views reality from a particular, specifiable space-time location or frame of reference. Thus, from within each observer's "inertial frame," measurements different than other observers' describing the same object will be produced. That is, different observers will see/measure the same spacetime objects differently according to "where they stand" relative to other observers. But at the end of the day, Einstein asserts, the fundamental laws of the universe are identical for all observers, regardless of their spacetime positions relative to each other.

Think through what it would actually mean, HarleyD, if truth were to be ascertained by a public opinion poll....

I hope we can resume our conversation tomorrow!

Meanwhile good night HarleyD! And sleep tight!

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

“...sleep tight!”

And don’t let the bedbugs bite! :)

[betty boop]

LOLOL!!! :^) Thank you GGpaX4DumpedTea! (Childhood memories invoked here....)

Good night and, besides non-biting bedbugs, may you have pleasant dreams!

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much for your wonderful essay-posts, dearest sister in Christ!

The foundation of American law is the U.S. Constitution — which by inference from the founding documents is dedicated to the preservation and defense of our unalienable rights (our God-endued natural rights as created human beings), preeminently including the right to Life. We the People created the Constitution. If it is no longer performing up to our expectations in matters of justice, it's up to We the People to correct it.

A law that violates life would appear to be unconstitutional on its face.

Indeed, especially since the purpose of the Constitution stated in the preamble reads as follows (emphasis mine:)

We the People of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our posterity do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

P-Marlowe raised the preamble earlier in the Tiller debate.

Of a truth, abortion law (judicial fiat actually) doesn't give a hoot for our "posterity."

That they preferred a non-stated right to privacy over the clearly stated purpose to secure liberty for our posterity is shameful.

In effect, the court has read a parenthetical into the clause: "to ourselves and our posterity (if we chose to not kill them first)".

But to correct a bad law, it's better to find a solution that doesn't involve us killing one another.

Absolutely!

The present administration and media will milk this tragedy for all its worth.

I suspect they will try to find the entire pro-life movement complicit by reason of its showing pictures, calling the unborn a baby and the act, murder or killing.

I predict this will be a First Amendment struggle from the get-go, because once mentally and spiritually healthy people know what abortion really "is" they cannot continue to support it.

[SeaHawkFan]

I suspect they will try to find the entire pro-life movement complicit by reason of its showing pictures, calling the unborn a baby and the act, murder or killing.

That would be far less fair than saying the pro-abortion movement is responsible for all the murders committed by Tiller.

[Alamo-Girl]

That would be far less fair than saying the pro-abortion movement is responsible for all the murders committed by Tiller.

Indeed. And they will never say that.

Thank you so much for your insights, dear SeaHawkFan!

[Alamo-Girl]

Here you cite in no uncertain terms the very heart of the doctrine of moral relativism: "It's all a matter of perspective"; i.e., there are no absolute universal moral laws binding on all men at all times. Which in the end conduces to the understanding that "moral behavior," even "truth" can be established by means of a public opinion poll.

Precisely so.

Thank you for sharing your insights, dearest sister in Christ!

[SeattleBruce]

Bruce: “No legit pro-life leader defends what Roeder...”

P-M: “It would appear to me that the “legit” pro life “leaders” are falling all over themselves with grief over the loss of a man like Tiller.”

Bruce: Sorry P-M, not true. They are just not going to defend Roeder like you may wish. Roeder acted on his own (really) and in so doing does not represent the vast majority of pro-lifers, nor pro-life leadership.

If Roeder had a moral authority - he would have consulted ‘many counselors’ as it says in Proverbs. But he did not do that and took matters into his own hands.

Now you expect these leaders and pro-lifers that disagree with you about Roeder to wring our hands about the outrageous displays concerning Tiller (at his service.)

Roeder brought this on by his reckless behavior. Pro-lifers are now having to step through the mine field of Roeder’s making - in that he’s pushed Tiller onto some sort of pro-abortion pedastel, and caused the enemedia to get in our face about it.

Now when those leaders, and people like me push back and take a step back from Roeder to stand on our principles - DO NOT accuse us of walking in lock step with pro-aborts, which is just plain not true.

I have not heard pro-life leaders express grief for Tiller. I have heard them distance themselves from Roeder - and rightly so.

[wardaddy]

Waldman is an ecumenical ringmaster.

I’m not sure he believes in anything but selling books.

I assume (guess) he was born Jewish.

His views on how Christians or conservatives should view Tiller’s killing matter none to me given that he probably neither.

[P-Marlowe]

Roeder brought this on by his reckless behavior.

As did Tiller.

[wardaddy]

Should I thank psuedo-religious Waldman for being quoted twice....he could have at least repaired my left off letter for me...drat, ingrate

btw Waldman just in case you're looking....my dreaded conservative Christianity has zero to do with my opinions on infanticide..zip

for some reason maybe completely foreign to you and other handwringers, I simply find it wrong instinctively to murder babies...call me keenly intuitive if you'd like

i love how the usual moderate freepers are crying how lefties use our harsh words against us...like we should live for them to frame the debate for us then it will all be ok....fools

[HarleyD]

Your "walk" with the Lord is to be your brothers keeper.

On the contrary, we can only look after our own salvation. We do this by doing three things 1) do justice, 2) love kindness, and 3) walk humbly with our God. Anything beyond this is outside our scope. Now tell me, which of those things involve murder?

[markomalley]

Penny sounds like your typical “sicko” Leftwingtard.'

Indeed. Of concern is a sick desire to "monitor" FR like that. But I guess that sickness is pretty well typical of the left, isn't it...

[blue-duncan]

“Are you from around hee-yah, that is, frum ahround these pahts? (Boston vicinity”

I was born and raised in Lawrence. We moved to Connecticut when the textile mills went south to rid themselves of the unions.

[Nowhere Man]

I don't know what to think anymore, if someone said in the past that "the powers that be" ordered the murder, then I would say he is listening to Alex Jones too much. With Zero in the White House, Alex Jones sounds a lot more reasonable.

Myself, I sometimes wonder if this is an extreme version of Tiller's "bad karma" catching up to him. I'm a firm believer in karma, if you do bad or good, God (I'm a Christian for the record), the Universe or whatever deity you believe in has a way of getting even and rewarding or punishing you in this life or the Afterlife. It's like one time I ate too many burgers at a cookout at work, my co-worker got upset but it wasn't over, that night I got the mother of all heartburns/acid reflux, that was karma coming to kick me in the butt. Sometimes karma might be quick or it might take years, but it will eventually catch up to you. That always has been my belief.

I don't applaud the killer at all, but in a way he was just a tool in an extreme case of the bad karma this doctor was building up with abortions for years.