The Church of Tiller

http://www.reformation-lutheran.org/ ^

[MNDude]

This is a link to the church of Tiller the Killer. I have to say that going through their web-site made me feel somewhat sick to the stomach.

I was expecting this to be a church that omits the name of Jesus Christ from their teachings, with a weird blend of New Age and Secularism.

Instead their mission statement tends to talk about being guided by the Holy Spirit and how we're a sinful people loved by God. They have links to their music and worship services and lots of smiling children pictures.

At a glance, the church doesn't seem to have too much that would scream false church.

Their media statements calls the death of Tiller a violent tragedy that "we deplore", while they allude to his baby killings as "our unresolved differences" that must be discussed peacefully.

I imagine during the holocaust there certainly must have been known German concentration camp murderers would kill thousands of Jewish children that attended their churches comfortably regularly. These camp workers would have had after church fellowship with other church attenders who would be thinking "I have a difference about your killing Jewish children", but it would go no further than this.

I'm curious on other's take on this church and their apparent inconsistancy with the Christian faith.

[Kimmers]

I attend a none dom church and this man would have been welcomed in the church but the elders would have counseled with him regarding his outwardly sinful behavior nor would he have been allowed to have any leadership roles within the church.......I also think he would have skipped abortion Sunday.....

The ELCA is so far removed from biblical truths and teachings and more concerned with political correctness, it is no surprise this guy felt comfortable in this church and maybe he was one of the bigger donors to the church so they turned a blind eye to his sin.....

[slumber1]

Phelps.......isn’t even a very good example of an “all judgment” Christian

I didn't say he was a christian. I was talking about church groups who preach judgment only and his group is set up as a church. Phelps 'church" is mo more a true church than Tillers "church" is. They are both counterfeit "churches" and Tillers is even more dangerous because it isn't as obviously false as Phelps.

[newhouse]

I know this has been said over and over and over ad nauseum but how in the world can a “church” claim to be Christian and embrace a killer openly and consider Tiller’s murder an evil thing, but killing full term infants okay. When I think of how Christ took time to bless each child in a crowd on occasion, when I think of how Christ himself came as an infant-I have to think I am right in saying this is an abomination to the Lord. And I think there are going to be some surprises for people who accept killing the unborn and nearly born.

[mkjessup]

This is what I call a ‘Grapenuts’ Church.

This church (like many other apostate churches) have an amazing similarity to the cereal ‘Grapenuts’, which if you look inside the box, you will find neither Grapes, nor will you find any Nuts (pastors and congregation notwithstanding).

But the manufacturer of that cereal persists in calling it ‘Grapenuts’, just as these so-called churches persist in believing and proclaiming that they are ‘Christian’ churches.

They are but nicely carpeted and tiled gateways to Hell itself.

[bcsco]

The ELCA has been tolerant of homosexuality within its congregations for many years. In fact, it allows homosexuality in the ministry as long as they don't 'practice' their sexuality. This is coming up again at their convention in August.

It's a short step from toleration of homosexuality (against Scriptural dogma) to 'hospitality' toward the issue of abortion. I use that term because their ELCA on Abortion page at ELCA.org (NOTE: This is NOT the website of Tiller's church) includes this sentence: "Our ministry of hospitality to all people ought to include women who have had abortions, women who are considering abortions, children, families, and those who bear and raise children under all kinds of circumstances."

I personally find the context of the term 'hospitality' to be telling and distasteful. I find little there that indicates intolerance of sin. And that's why I left that church for the LCMS years ago.

[MrB]

Their reasoning trumps biblical authority.

Standard "unconstrained", liberal, leftist thinking. Read "Conflict of Visions" for more detail.

[utahagen]

I believe the ELCA long ago approved a health insurance plan that covers employees’ abortions. I believe also that this was NOT inadvertent, that the ELCA debated this and ended up approving it. There's a woman whose name escapes me who was an ELCA Lutheran minister and ended up becoming a Catholic after being upset by the ELCA’s support of abortion.

[bcsco]

To them, the bible is just a reference book. Their reasoning trumps biblical authority.

This is not the view of this particular ELCA church but that of the ELCA as a whole. I belonged to an ELCA parish who's pastor threw the Bible on the floor in an Adult Sunday School class and stated the Bible was just another book.

If you go the the ELCA website and look at their beliefs, you'll find little that gives you insight into this. But it's there. I left for the LCMS years ago because of this; precipitated by their stance on homosexuality.

[opaque soul]

There is a pressure that bends against all who call themselves followers of Christ... it is called the World System, or the spirit of Antichrist. Many Christian churches are concerned with attendance roles,ie, how to increase them, their public “ministries”, the offering plate and of course how they are perceived out in the World. The spirit of Antichrist is very adept at making man, all men, grovel for affection, adoration and to be well thought of by those out in the “World”. Hence the Church, though well intended, is susceptible to the great power of the World System. Jesus Said that true followers Would be hated for his name sake. If the World does not show a disgust for any particular church, then those of that body should be wary of their standing with God.

[Guenevere]

That's also how the PCA Presbyterian began, over 30 years ago...
..leaving the mainline Presbyterian Church, USA...due to their apostasy.

[carikadon]

Love the visual of the “gateway.” Perfect analogy. Evil is deceptively attractive.

[Nathan Zachary]

"I imagine during the holocaust there certainly must have been known German concentration camp murderers would kill thousands of Jewish children that attended their churches comfortably regularly. These camp workers would have had after church fellowship with other church attenders who would be thinking "I have a difference about your killing Jewish children", but it would go no further than this."

You'd be thinking wrong. Christians were murdered along with Jews in those concentration camps. Over 880 Catholic Priests were murdered in those camps, and over 1200 Catholic churches looted and razed to the ground by the Nazi's.

[RobinOfKingston]

I'm curious on other's take on this church and their apparent inconsistancy with the Christian faith.

I am Lutheran. I was elca 'til helping my church leave them. We are now out and elsewhere. There is an old joke among Lutherans who share similar wording of mission statements, creeds, guiding principles such as "Vision and Expectations" (look it up): the joke is "Well, yeah, but we mean it."

By all that, I do not cast aspersions on the vast number of Lutheran Christians who populate elca churches. The denomination is a wretched, broken, dysfunctional, politically correct, embarrassment. But there are still people there who have not yet thrown off the chains. It is the Babylonian Captivity in todays context.

[MrB]

Matthew 7:13-14 (New International Version)

The Narrow and Wide Gates
13”Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

[bcsco]

I suspect that should the August assembly approve their measures on homosexuality, there will subsequently be a growing exodus from the ELCA. If not by churches, certainly by members. I have two member families in mind at this time, possibly three (although the wife of the 3rd appears in the "Assembly 2009" photo on the ELCA home page). She's a synod VP...

[Nathan Zachary]

"Make sure that no one traps you and deprives you of your freedom by some secondhand, empty, rational philosophy based on the principles of this world instead of on Christ." Colossians 2:6-8

"This people honors me only with lip-service, while their hearts are far from me. The worship they offer me is worthless; the doctrines they teach are only human regulations." (Matt.15:8-9).

"You will know them by their fruits." (Mt.7:15-20).(literally, in the case of the united church and some other denominations)

These are a few of my favorites.

[Charlemagne on the Fox]

I’m a pastor in the Association of Free Lutheran Congregations. (We left the ELCA in 1989.)

The AFLC website is www. aflc. org.

[RobinOfKingston]

Having done this listening, we sometimes conclude ... that God now is saying or doing something new.

The God of the Old and New Testaments is Triune in nature; Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Hebrews 13:8 reads, "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today and forever."

When we conclude that "God is saying something new" it what our itching ears want us to hear.

[MrB]

I like this translation better - the language of “taken captive” and “hollow and deceptive philosophy” hits home.

Col 2:8 (NIV)
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

[twigs]

Thank you. My best fiend is a member of ELCA (I think that’s right). It’s a born-again congregation, growing a lot, and they have regular problems with the ELCA.