The BIG question lately - CAN STATES SECEDE?

discussion

[RED SOUTH]

Article VII sets out the provision for original ratification, and that Article IV empowers Congress to admit new States, but that no provision of the Constitution authorizes a state to leave the Union or bars it from doing so. The constitution does not say anything about states leaving.

[Non-Sequitur]

Tell me what article or what amendment specifically forbids the states from seceding from the Union? I will answer for you, NONE do, there is nothing in the constitution that denies states from seceding therefore they have the right o secede under the 10th amendment.

I agree with that. But nothing in the Constitution, expressed or implied, allows states to secede unilaterally.

[MrPiper]

Whatever happened to preaching our values to the American Citizen and winning them back over?

Sorry, that ended when the Federal Gov. decided NOT to enforce immigration laws therefore importing socialism. You now have to preach to NON-American Citizens. If they can vote themselves more money, they will, they did. Here we are.

[PAR35]

The constitution does not say anything about states leaving.

Try this:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

[Non-Sequitur]

I don't know about California, but Texas went directly from a republic to a state. Congress did not approve a treaty for the annexation of Texas. A treaty requires a two thirds majority in the Senate.

Check again. There was a treaty annexing Texas which was signed in April 1844 was approved by the Senate alone. And there was a separate bill admitting Texas as a state.

[Non-Sequitur]

However, there is nothing in the US Constitution forbidding it.

And nothing allowing unilateral secession either.

I seriously doubt if Congress would stand in the way of secession, provided it was the will of the people of Texas, and if it was done peacefully

Nor should they. If secession is indeed the will of the people of the state then the duty of Congress is to negotiate an equitable separation and then vote to allow Texas to go its own way peacefully.

[rustbucket]

Check again. There was a treaty annexing Texas which was signed in April 1844 was approved by the Senate alone. And there was a separate bill admitting Texas as a state.

Check again yourself. From page 43 of Documents of Texas History by Ernest Wallace, David M. Vigness, and George B. Ward:

President Tyler urged its adoption, but the United States Senate rejected it on June 8, 1844, by a vote of thirty-five to sixteen.

[rustbucket]

Excuse me. That was page 143, not 43.

[McGavin999]

I was taught that both California and Texas had the right to secede from the union.

I don't think California has that right, however, if you put it to a vote, most Americans would vote San Francisco and Los Angeles out of the union. *gri*

[McGavin999]

That should have been *grin*

[caddie]

Hi TurtleUp, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Of course your points are good. And of course secession is not the best option. But when you can't reason with liberals, when they want 75 % or more of your money, and they want to take it to pay for abortions, and allow open borders to hostile and or parasitic hordes of millions of foreigners, well, then, what option do you have but secede?

The only other option is live as a perpetually indentured servant to the tyrannical parasite mob which will always outnumber and outvote you.

That is why we must restore our REPUBLIC.

[antiRepublicrat]

Has a state ever turned down statehood yet been forced to join? If not, they voluntarily joined the confederation.

[WhistlingPastTheGraveyard]

states don't voluntarily join anything. They're admitted. Their request for statehood can be, and has been, turned down and there's nothing they can do about it.

The same can be said about joining the military. Some people are turned down. Yet it's universally accepted that we have volunteer armed forces.

States volunteer to be admitted. Hence, it is voluntary.

[armymarinedad]

So you think when you secede that all you have to worry about are a few Mexican gangs. Do you really think that Texas has the weaponry and finances to take on several nations that are sworn enemies of the U.S. When you secede they will probably attack you. Who are you gonna get for allies and how do plan to resupply your newly formed military?

[ansel12]

Do you really think that Texas has the weaponry and finances to take on several nations that are sworn enemies of the U.S. When you secede they will probably attack you. Who are you gonna get for allies and how do plan to resupply your newly formed military?

Look at a map and think about that a little bit, does it look like armies and navies of the world would all of a sudden decide to start attacking the United States by sending huge military attacks to conquer Texas and place Russian tanks on the borders of Oklahoma, Louisiana, New Mexico and Arkansas? We aren't talking about relocating Texas out to Asia or Eastern Europe or Africa.

In the year 2004 the state of Texas had 15,594 of it's young people enlist into the active duty military.

In the year 2004 the nation of Canada while at war and while having vast borders and exposed to the Atlantic and the Pacific oceans and Russia had an active duty of a total of 61,394 personnel.

No one will be invading Texas and in any event Texas would be capable of having a larger military than Canada.

By the way I'm sure that Texas would reopen it's old embassies in London, Paris, and Washington DC that they had in the 1800s and I'm sure today they would have many more allies and zero enemies.

[TexConfederate1861]

Let’s hope it doesn’t come to that, regardless. But I do know that the people of Texas would vote for secession rather than live in a socialist state, run by a Psuedo-Dictator.........

[Cacique]

The simple answer is no, unless there’s a civil war and the feds lose.

[TurtleUp]

I think an equally relevant question is “can states AFFORD to secede”? In the case of California, where I live, CA would sink to the bottom of the Pacific Ocean if it split, financially speaking.

I'm certain that were a groups of states to secede, they would refuse to admit California to their membersip. CA is the problem and its people cannot be part of the solution until they learn that socialism and communism are evil and incompatible with success and with human nature.

Similarly, MD, MA, IL, NY, and the other far left states would be unwelcome in a free union until they learned to abandon their dreams of a People's Republic.

[TurtleUp]

Not unless the Constitution allows for it. As I've said on many occasions, I believe that all states have the right to secede with the consent of the other states. No state has the right to secede unilaterally. Regardless of what their rarification document says.

As someone once observed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights ..."

We are endowed by God with the unilateral right to secede, since governments cannot have just power without the consent of the governed. Whether we exercise that right is a decision that should be considered carefully, but we have that right and it cannot be taken away. The Second Amendment gives free pwople the power to exercise that right. Obama's moral and mental weakness gives that power a high probability of being exercised successfully even if both sides foolishly decide to make this a military question rather than a moral one.

[Abundy]

you certainly make a good argument

I just don’t agree that such a fight can be won

you are fighting against years of bad case law regarding affirmative action, entrenched unions, media bias, entrenched politicians, etc...

you argument would be correct if we were fighting only one or two of those things at a time, but we can’t beat all of them at the same time

add to this the fact that conservative/libertarian minded individuals who work for a living wait to have children and you have the entitlement minded havenots pumping out at least two generations of moochers for everyone one generation of people who support the moochers

that translates to a voter imbalance without the voter fraud - that could be cured with some sort of biometric national ID card that would be a requirement to vote, but we all know that such a card would be used by government for all sorts of nefarious purposes

if some states don’t leave and leave now, they all will be lost

[smug]

..nothing in the Constitution, expressed or implied, allows states to secede unilaterally.

Which would mean nothing restricts it either from leaving unilaterally either. We have to remember that the rights of the people existed before the/any government existed. The Bill of Rights should have been named The Bill of Restrictions against the Government. Perhaps then we might have been more diligent in keeping the Monster at bay. But I doubt it.