BREAKING -- Berg v Obama - Scheduled for SCOTUS Conference TWICE on Jan 16

US Supreme Court ^ | 12/23/08 | US Supreme Court

[BP2]

No. 08-570
Title:	Philip J. Berg, Petitioner v. Barack Obama, et al.
Docketed:	October 31, 2008
Lower Ct:	United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit

Case Nos.:	(08-4340)
	Rule 11

~~~Date~~~	~~~~~~~Proceedings  and  Orders~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Oct 30 2008	Petition for a writ of certiorari before judgment filed. (Response due December 1, 2008)
Oct 31 2008	Application (08A391) for an injunction pending the disposition of the petition for a writ of certiorari, submitted to Justice Souter.
Nov 3 2008	Supplemental brief of applicant Philip J. Berg filed.
Nov 3 2008	Application (08A391) denied by Justice Souter.
Nov 18 2008	Waiver of right of respondents Federal Election Commission, et al. to respond filed.
Dec 1 2008	Motion for leave to file amicus brief filed by Bill Anderson.
Dec 8 2008	Application (08A505) for an injunction pending the disposition of the petition for a writ of certiorari, submitted to Justice Souter.
Dec 9 2008	Application (08A505) denied by Justice Souter.
Dec 15 2008	Application (08A505) refiled and submitted to Justice Kennedy.
Dec 17 2008	DISTRIBUTED for Conference of January 9, 2009.
Dec 17 2008	Application (08A505) denied by Justice Kennedy.
Dec 18 2008	Application (08A505) refiled and submitted to Justice Scalia.
Dec 23 2008	Application (08A505) referred to the Court.
Dec 23 2008	DISTRIBUTED for Conference of January 16, 2009.	---------------

No. 08A505
Title:	Philip J. Berg, Applicant v. Barack Obama, et al.
Docketed:
Lower Ct:	United States Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit

Case Nos.:

(08-4340)

~~~Date~~~	~~~~~~~Proceedings  and  Orders~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dec 8 2008	Application (08A505) for an injunction pending the disposition of the petition for a writ of certiorari, submitted to Justice Souter.
Dec 9 2008	Application (08A505) denied by Justice Souter.
Dec 15 2008	Application (08A505) refiled and submitted to Justice Kennedy.
Dec 17 2008	Application (08A505) denied by Justice Kennedy.
Dec 18 2008	Application (08A505) refiled and submitted to Justice Scalia.
Dec 23 2008	Application (08A505) referred to the Court.
Dec 23 2008	DISTRIBUTED for Conference of January 16, 2009.

[Red Steel]

But I'll humor you. Both "natural born citizen" and "native born citizen" mean anyone that is a citizen by birth.

The issue has never been adjudicated in the U.S. courts. You have your opinion and I have mine. If the Supreme Court now punts on this for whatever reason, the question will still exist until a time when the Supreme Court takes it up.

[mlo]

"The issue has never been adjudicated in the U.S. courts."

So why think it is even an issue? What makes it something that has to be decided?

The contention that "natural born citizen" means anything other than its apparent obvious meaning is without any legal foundation. Just because some internet posters come up with a fanciful interpretation doesn't mean that the Supreme Court suddenly has to clarify what wasn't unclear before.

[Rebelbase]

The USA associated with the Soviet Union once to pursue a common goal. Strange bedfellows and all that.....

[devere]

“The constitutional waters are crystal clear”

That’s total and complete nonsense.

[Drew68]

That’s total and complete nonsense.

Actually it's not. People here are inventing Constitutional definitions for the sole purpose of trying to disqualify Obama from presidential eligibility. Wanting this fiction to be true doesn't make it so.

Ping me when SCOTUS grants cert. Until then, I'll just go on maintaining that the Constitution is perfectly clear on this matter as there is absolutely no activity in the courts to lead me to believe otherwise.

[freeplancer]

I am not saying Bush and Cheney had anything to do with 911, but what I am saying is that you don’t know that, you believe it. There is a difference. How in the world can you even begin to say that the Obama birth certificate and resident status is a non-issue? Do you believe that he is an angel and that there is no way that the “governement” could overlook such an issue? Naive or dumb, you must decide which one you are.

[John Valentine]

Both of you are in need of education, which I will attempt to provide, at least at the elementary level. Controlling cases on this issue are scarce as hen’s teeth, probably because no previous Presidential candidate so egregiously challenged the supremacy of the Constitution.

But, in US v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) the Court quoted at length from a prior case, Minor v. Happerset (1874), which I quote in full:

” ‘At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country, of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further, and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens.’ Minor v. Happersett (1874) 21 Wall. 162, 166-168.”

This represents the Constitutional definition of both a “natural-born” and a “native-born” citizen. An irrational and legally unsupported view has grown up in the United States that the Constitution grants citizenship to anyone and everyone born on the territory of the United States. This view is unsupported, wrong, not in accord with legitimate precedent, and dangerous. You will also note that the holding in Minor would bring into question not only the “natural born” citizenship of a person like Obama, but his very citizenship itself.

The Congress may grant citizenship through its powers of naturalization, and we may safely say that it has done so in the cases of individuals who are born in the United States of ONE citizen parent and one non-citizen parent, or to children of US citizen parents born outside the territory of the United States, but Congress absolutely lacks the power to amend the Constitution by means of enacting statute law.

Therefore, contrary to your uninformed but commonly held opinion that there is not a “3rd” class of citizen that is a citizen by birth, but which is not a “natural born” citizen as established by the Constitution, there most definitely IS just such a classification.

A very dear family member, by son, belongs to that class of citizen. He is a US citizen by birth, and has had no other citizenship than this, ever in his life. Yet, he is NOT a “natural-born” citizen, and can never be, because he was not born in the United States. His US citizenship does not derive from the Constitution, but from statue law.

On this issue, I will admit that there is controversy, but that controversy arises not because there is genuine uncertainty, but because there has been a long and unfortunate corruption of public understanding, and a proliferation of confusion in the minds of the muddled public. Despite this, the position you are espousing is profoundly wrong-headed, and factually and legally incorrect.

The courts need to act to introduce much needed clarity on the matter.

[Red Steel]

So why think it is even an issue? What makes it something that has to be decided?

All these lawsuit against Obama and Secretary of States haven't given you a clue?

Natural born is not the same as native born despite all your posts to say otherwise.

Just because some internet posters come up with a fanciful interpretation...

Same can be said of you.

...doesn't mean that the Supreme Court suddenly has to clarify what wasn't unclear before.

The all knowing mlo speaks for the Supreme Court.

[little jeremiah]

So, the only people who can ever do anything good or right, or be correct about any point, must be perfect in every single aspect of their lives, and must not hold the slightest belief or position that isn’t perfect in every way. One lie, one erroneous belief, one mistake, one idiocy - means the entire life is kaput, useless, into the trash.

Got it.

[John Valentine]

Please see my Post No. 167.

Let me add in elaboration of the referenced post that the word “parents” as used by the Court in Minor and repeated in Wong Kim Ark, is PLURAL.

Any grammarians out there who think the word “parents” actually means “parent”?

[calenel]

"How about 150 years of Presidential precedent during which every President was a living breathing definition of a Natural Born Citizen [except one who hid his past and burned his papers because he knew he wasn't one]. Will that suffice???"

What is this 'living breathing' definition? Is it the one where you must be born of two US citizen parents on US soil? Or just born a citizen? Or did your citizen parents have to be native born, or what? Because I have seen so many different assertions about what exactly that means that there isn't any longer a clear 'living breathing' definition that can be referenced - now you need to quote the definition so people will know which one you mean. But let's start with the strictest one that has been seriously suggested: born on US soil to two US citizen parents and being subject to no other sovereignty. Is that the one you mean? [full disclosure: I do not support that definition, in case there is anybody at all remaining on FR who didn't know that.]

[editor-surveyor]

You’re confusing citizenship with Natural Born citizenship which is declared in the constitution for the office of president. It is based on allegiance, and freedom from foreign ties.

[mlo]

If you could substitute truth for condescension you'd be right. But you aren't.

” ‘At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country, of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further, and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens.’ Minor v. Happersett (1874) 21 Wall. 162, 166-168.”

So what about this proves your point exactly? It doesn't provide the "natural born citizen" definition you need. The most it says is "there have been doubts". It doesn't say those doubts are valid, and then it explicity avoids going into it any further.

This doesn't help you.

[trumandogz]

One lie, one erroneous belief, one mistake, one idiocy - means the entire life is kaput, useless, into the trash.

Sorry, I have no forgiveness or trust for those who want to prosecute George W. Bush and Dick Cheney for the Terrorist Attacks of 9/11 and the murder of 3000 Americans.

[mlo]

"You’re confusing citizenship with Natural Born citizenship which is declared in the constitution for the office of president. It is based on allegiance, and freedom from foreign ties."

No, that's not correct. You are only repeating the starting point for this debate. It's the thing in dispute.

"Natural born citizen" simply means someone born a citizen. The stuff about two citizen parents and being free from foreign ties, has nothing to do with it. That's what people have been trying to argue, but they have nothing to back it up with.

[little jeremiah]

Berg probably beats his wife, kids, dogs, cheats on his taxes, watches porn, spits in the collection plate at church or synagogue or probably doesn’t attend, and kicks little old ladies into the traffic, too.

And cheated all his way through school, and has false IDs.

[mlo]

"All these lawsuit against Obama and Secretary of States haven't given you a clue?"

Well, how have they done so far?

"Natural born is not the same as native born despite all your posts to say otherwise."

So some people have been claiming, but they can't back it up. So yes it is otherwise.

"Same can be said of you."

No it can't, because I haven't invented some new interpration of a simple phrase then demanded everyone else to prove me wrong and the Supreme Court to take me seriously.

[calenel]

"If the Supreme Court now punts on this for whatever reason, the question will still exist until a time when the Supreme Court takes it up."

Nice CYA. Truly.

"The issue has never been adjudicated in the U.S. courts."

Except where the Court has used the terms interchangeably, as in Perkins v. Elg when they discuss Steinkauler's case. I have pointed this out to you before. Take careful note of the use of 'native born' and the explicit statement that Steinkauler can become President if the people so elect. The Court also notes that Steinkauler possesses dual citizenship, which refutes the 'sole jurisdiction' argument. As I also told you before.

[trumandogz]

I am not saying Bush and Cheney had anything to do with 911, but what I am saying is that you don’t know that, you believe it. There is a difference.

I would bet my life and the lives of my children that President Bush and Dick Cheney were not responsible for the 9/11 Attacks.

How in the world can you even begin to say that the Obama birth certificate and resident status is a non-issue? Do you believe that he is an angel and that there is no way that the “governement” could overlook such an issue?

From the evidence presented, it would appear that BHO was born in Hawaii and that would without question make him a natural born citizen.

I have never said, wrote or thought anything positive about Obama except that he has two great looking kids. However, the bottom line is that he won the election and on Jan. 20th he will be sworn into office. And as an American that was born overseas, it upsets me that some would think that I am not a natural born citizen or that my niece and nephew who were born in Brazil are not Americans. My eldest daughter came within two weeks of my wife and I leaving Egypt and if we had stayed those two weeks there would be people here questioning her citizenship.