Posted on 11/19/2008 9:11:02 AM PST by kellynla
Catholic members of Congress who vote for the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA) could face “automatic excommunication” if the act is determined to be “formal cooperation” in the evil of abortion.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnsnews.com ...
“Cripes- But if YOU had REALLY accepted Christ- you wouldn’t EVER comit any since henceforth I guess then, huh? “
It just means that the first re-birth wasn’t genuine and you need a do-over...
You are reborn only so long as you live in a state of Grace. It doesn’t mean that you can be saved, turn away from God, and everything will be cool. I suppose you can believe that if you want to though.
*sighs*
People don't understand freedom of speech or the freedom of religion. The Free Republic has the right to ban people who make racist posts. The Catholic Church has the right to excommunicate people who violate what they deem to be non-negotiable issues. It is only a violation of freedom of speech/religion when the punishment goes beyond getting kicked out of a private group and becomes legally set by the government. E.g. if the Catholic Church could arrest politicians or boot them out of office for being pro-choice, then you'd have a violation of church and state.
Your Catechisis is lacking on this thread.Where was I wrong? Are you implying that the Church teaches that there is nothing wrong with abortion or idolatry?
There has to be some REAL, concrete consequences for cooperation with intrinsic evil.Define "cooperation".
Yes...but does the Church have the stones to kick them out?
Not so far!
The truth about Pope Pius XII: He loathed Hitler and the Nazis and he sheltered and protected hundreds of thousands of Jews from being exterminated. You simply must read Rabbi David Dalin’s book, The Myth of Hitler’s Pope, it clears up the whole matter. Pius XII was a saint who saved many lives and was beacon of light in time of darkness.
Much like with Sen. Joseph McCarthy, the liberal/left has done a real hatchet job on Pius XII.
And on a last note, let’s change your words and see how good that looks...
“But I definitely have a problem with the Church telling Catholic politicians that they must use their political power to make sure that no American can have an abortion or worship an idol.” Your words.
Now look at it...
“But I definitely have a problem with the Church telling Catholic politicians that they must use their political power to make sure that no American can murder their three year old or worship an idol.”
Why is there a difference here? If you are Catholic, you believe that one is a human being from the moment of conception. Therefore, by allowing an “American” to abort her child, you are allowing that woman to murder her child.
And why aren’t you, a Catholic, stating that murdering a human being is wrong? You are thinking of the “American” mother and not the “American” child? What’s up with that?
“Voting for 0bama constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.”
Rev Newman
He’s right.
And supporting FoCA constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.
There are probably a bunch that fear for their revenue flow if they kick people out for this,
but the church would definitely be stronger for it. I would even imagine they might swell their ranks through converts if they took a strong stand.
“Yet divorce is freely available and is subsidized by the federal government, and Catholic politicians need not fear when they support those laws.
Divorce IS allowed in the Catholic Church. It’s only if you re-marry that you are denied Communion. And even there, it’s only while you remain in that (sexual) relationship.
>>Where was I wrong? Are you implying that the Church teaches that there is nothing wrong with abortion or idolatry?<<
Why don’t you give the CCC reference that says that if you are into idolatry you are excommunicated?
You know the church the way you want. Like those Catholics who voted Anti-Life.
2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.72You mean like how human life was absolutely respected and protected during the Inquisition? Or the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre?
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,”77 “by the very commission of the offense,”78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.The issue is how "formal cooperation" is defined. Some bishops have this view that opposing the use of secular legislation to punish abortion constitutes "formal cooperation" while others disagree.
We are not talking about the 10 Commandments here. We are talking about a stated position of the Catholic ChurchThe Church's position on abortion is based on the 10 Commandments- specifically, an interpretation that "Tjou shalt not kill" applies to unborn feti as it does to born people.
And supporting FoCA constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil.Supporting the First Amendment constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil (idolatry).
The Catholic Church does not oppose Capital Punishment... No such teaching is found anywhere in the Canon or teachings of the Church. There may be disagreement among the faithful, but that is as far as it goes. The Church has always recognized the right of the State the recourse of capital punishment.
On the matter of divorce: The Church does not recognize civil divorce. However, whether the Church grants an “annulment” is reserved to very limited cases involving fraud or a specific incompetence AT THE TIME THE SACRAMENT WAS ADMINISTERED (impediment to make the sacrament)
Remember that before the precedent of King Henry VIII, the “Separation of Church and State” (the Primary doctrine of the English “Reformation” … actually a rebellion or revolution) matrimony was the exclusive purview of the Church. Divorce was unheard of, and annulments were very rare, saving the most extreme of circumstances. Even infidelity was not sufficient grounds to annul a marriage.
Do not blame the Church for the acts of the Reformation. Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Do yourself an American favor and take some time to learn about them, starting with The Federalist Papers. Is your public education recent?
The ignorance of historical fact and Church teaching on this thread is incredible.
You argue like a Protestant. Going back hundreds of years to point out mistakes made to rationalize today.
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,”
Let’s look at this again. The Bishops are NOW stating that voting for the FOCA is against this. That is the fact.
So let me ask you again, where is your CCC reference for idolatry be an excommunicable offense and why do you want to allow American babies to be murdered?
“But I definitely have a problem with the Church telling Catholic politicians that they must use their political power to make sure that no American can have an abortion or worship an idol.”
It doesn’t tell them that. It only says that they can no longer be a Catholic...
And why aren’t you, a Catholic, stating that murdering a human being is wrong? You are thinking of the “American” mother and not the “American” child? What’s up with that?I stated quite plainly that murder and idolatry are sins.
Why is there a difference here? If you are Catholic, you believe that one is a human being from the moment of conception. Therefore, by allowing an “American” to abort her child, you are allowing that woman to murder her child.Allowing something to happen is not the same as approving something to happen. God does allow evil to happen; He does not approve of it. The American government allows people to bow to statues of Ba'al, Odin, or the Blessed Virgin Mary. This does not mean the government approves of idolatry or sanctions idolatry. If you read the Bible, idolatry has always been considered to be a grave sin. God even commanded the judges of Israel to stone idolaters to death.
The Bible itself is very clear on killing in self defense, in war, and as punishment.
It’s also rather clear on the taking of innocent life, and defining the human life as starting in the womb.
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