[Mr. Silverback]

Some things are known beyond dispute. For example, Short and Kimmel did receive a "war warning" in the weeks before December 7, but responded in ways that afterward seem ridiculous. Understanding how and why this happened helps explain "what FDR knew, and when did he know it."

You are accusing Short and Kimmel of murdering 3,000 of their men. You need to have some serious evidence to back such a thing up.

I particularly enjoy the ideaof the "expected surprise attack" that wouldn't have been a surprise, because Japan's declaration of war was supposed to be delivered before the bombs started falling.

[LS]

The "war warning" was extremely generic, and everybody and his BROTHER thought it was meant for the Philippines, which in itself damns MacArthur, who failed to prepare adequately for the attack everyone thought was coming. It's as if we "knew" the 9/11 terrorists were going to strike Disney World, and a month after 9/11, they did and Disney World was still unprepared.

Most important, no one . . . NO ONE . . . thought a Japanese fleet would dare cross the ocean to engage the 7th fleet head on. Remember, they firmly believed the carriers would be there right up until the very last intel came in from a spy saying the carriers were out. Such a fight against the ships in harbor, PLUS the three carriers, would have been incredibly damaging for the Japanese. Which is why it worked---it was so phenomenally audacious that no one ever expected it.

[BroJoeK]

"You are accusing Short and Kimmel of murdering 3,000 of their men. You need to have some serious evidence to back such a thing up."

Didn't you tell us that you are an expert on this subject?
Then why is it you don't understand what I'm saying?

It is a matter of historical record, not disputable, that Kimmel and Short did receive a "war warning," in the weeks prior to December 7, and that they did respond to the warning.

What IS highly debatable is whether that "warning" predicted what would happen, and whether Kimmel and Short responded appropriately.

You may remember that Kimmel and Short were relieved and disciplined after the attack, for their failure to be prepared, despite the warning.

And you may also remember that in recent years they were exonerated by Congress. None of this is debatable.

What is in question is whether FDR, Marshall & all, knew more than their warning implied.