Posted on 09/06/2008 5:22:01 PM PDT by AmericanInTokyo
"Organizers of the Republican convention demanded that a group of young Republicans take down their "Build The Fence" signs, a reference to a border fence to fight illegal immigration, while at the Xcel Center last night."
If it allows illegals (peopel wo entered this country illegally or stay here illegally) to participate, then it is clearly an amnesty. Denying that it's amnesty doesn't change the fact that that is precisely what it is.
>>”I believe we must have comprehensive immigration reform. The American people want our borders secured first,” McCain said during a news conference in Mexico City. .... “That will require some walls. It will require virtual fences. It will require high-technology equipment. We must secure our borders, and then we will address the issue of comprehensive immigration reform.” .... Some Mexicans called that the wrong strategy.<<
McCain (and Kennedy and Bush) said last year’s amnesty bill would “secure the border.” And you actually believe him? There’s a sucker born every minute.
Then why are so many illegals working in landscaping or running fast-food restaurants or even getting arrested when they try to apply for a job at the local Sheriff's office?
Simple.
Your Congresscritter is turning a blind eye towards illegal immigration because the farm lobby is bribing him to do just that so that their crops don't rot.
Once the door is left unguarded, everyone from peasant laborers who know nothing except picking fruit to skilled carpenters flood in. The illegals that can do better for themselves than picking fruit do just that.
This is not about picking crops any more.
Nope. It's also about everybody from Tyson Foods to limousine liberals getting cheap labor. They then bribe your Congresscritter to turn a blind eye.
It becomes a vicious cycle.
The solution is to identify the LEGITIMATE foreign labor needs for Guest Workers.
Maybe farmers really do need temporary foreign help during harvest season. Fine. Maybe Tyson Foods really does need foreign help for processing their chickens. Then again, maybe they don't.
Determine how many bodies are legitimately needed. Give them Guest Worker Permits and then you have legal travel back and forth between Mexico and the U.S. for legal contract workers just as we had at Guantanamo with the Jamaican Guest Workers.
Once all the legitimate labor needs have been met, COME DOWN HARD on any ILLEGAL EMPLOYERS hiring illegal aliens.
That is the only thing that will work. Trying to chase down and deport millions of illegals is a waste of time and money.
The illegals come to the U.S. for the money they get from illegal employers. Without that source of money, the illegals will self-deport.
Case in point:
Two weeks ago, my kitchen garbage bin under the sink developed an ant problem. An ant colony had found a hole into the house and columns of ants were streaming to the garbage. Killing them by the dozens every 15 minutes did not slow them down. They kept on coming and coming in a never ending, suicidal stream.
I then simply twisted the top of each plastic garbage bag and sealed it with a "Chip Clip".
The next day, no more ants.
The ants had self-deported.
No tasty garbage. No ants.
It's not rocket science.
Solving the illegal alien problem is quite simple:
1. Identify the LEGITIMATE foreign labor needs of agriculture and business.
2. Meet those legitimate needs with legal GUEST Workers. (Not "immigrants". Not "Green Card holders". Not "illegal aliens". Legal GUEST Workers. "Guest" as in "Nice having you over during your contracted time. Have a safe trip back home to Mexico. See you next harvest season!")
3. After that, you only need to be smarter than a colony of ants.
Is McCain in the White House now?
No.
George W. Bush, with the backbone of a chocolate eclair is.
If McCain says that, as President, he will secure the border, he will secure the border.
If it allows illegals (people who entered this country illegally or stay here illegally) to participate, then it is clearly an amnesty. Denying that it's amnesty doesn't change the fact that that is precisely what it is.
So, if people who entered this country illegally or stay here illegally are excluded from participation in a Guest Worker Program, then you have no problem with a Guest Worker Program?
That works for me.
That is a negotiating detail and, if I were Emperor of the United States, I would conceded that negotiating point to you.
Why, then, the automatic wailing and gnashing of the teeth every time "Guest Worker Program" is ever mentioned.
You guys are missing the forest for the trees.
As long as farmers are faced with the choice of seeing their crops rot in the fields and breaking the law, they will continue bribe your Congresscritter with campaign contributions to look the other way as they break the law and the flood of illegal aliens will never end.
And American workers who might do the work will never be given the chance to do so.
I suspect when push comes to shove and the farmer really wants to harvest his crop and not submit an insurance claim to cover his or her or its losses, that farmer would pay a higher wage and then pass it on to the consumer. Arguing for a poor farmer who doesn't understand how free markets work but would rather exploit everyone from the uh, 'guest worker' to the taxpayer is pretty lame.
Amnesty for invaders must never happen.
The Republican Party knows this that's why they put it here
And they wouldn't lie to ya. Right?
>>If McCain says that, as President, he will secure the border, he will secure the border.<<
I would be really happy to be wrong about what McCain would do if he were POTUS, but McCain (like Bush) said that last year’s amnesty bill was “not amnesty.” So I might be wrong, but I expect him to claim that the border is “secure” when in fact it is not, or to push legislation (with the help of traitors in congress) that promises to “secure the border,” but really grants amnesty without securing the border.
I do think he is likely to try to keep his other promise, which is “comprehensive immigration reform,” AKA amnesty, in his first 100 days. If he does, I and others will heat up the phones in Washington again.
Great news! I had not heard that. I am always late to get these memos ;-)
I suspect when push comes to shove and the farmer really wants to harvest his crop and not submit an insurance claim to cover his or her or its losses, that farmer would pay a higher wage and then pass it on to the consumer. Arguing for a poor farmer who doesn't understand how free markets work but would rather exploit everyone from the uh, 'guest worker' to the taxpayer is pretty lame.
The farmers know perfectly well how the free markets work.
How much do you think a new health insurance policy costs a person that has had cancer surgery?
How much do you think a yearly crop insurance policy costs for a crop in an area where all the local farmers have a documented history of seeing their crops rot in the fields when they can't find migrants to pick them?
Without any B.S., how much would they have to pay you to spend a month in the fields doing back breaking stoop labor?
How about your son or any of his friends?
Are they available by the tens of thousands during harvest time during the school year?
Without any B.S., what is the most you are willing to pay for a single tomato when tomatos are as rare as lobster because most of the tomato crop was left to rot in the fields.
Yes, the farmers know perfectly well how the free markets work and they see blood in the water.
Amnesty for invaders must never happen
As I have mentioned several times, the U.S. Navy has a Guest Worker Program at Guantanamo where they bring in Jamaican contracted workers so that Marines can spend their time defending the Base Fenceline instead of mowing lawns and painting buildings.
How does that translate into this "Amnesty" bogeyman that is paraded every time "Guest Worker Program " is ever mentioned?
You talk about how "the free market works".
I have already said multiple times how the "free market" IS working.
The farmers are not economically stupid and they have absolutely no intention of going bankrupt. Without a Guest Worker Program, they resort to illegal aliens and they bribe your Congresscritter to keep the supply of illegal aliens streaming over the border ..... day after day, month after month, year after year.
THAT is how the "free market" IS working.
"Guest Worker Program Over My Dead Body" + Farmers that DO know how the free markets work + Congresscritters bribed with farm campaign contributions + Illegal aliens = FLOOD OF ILLEGAL ALIENS WITH NO END IN SIGHT
And American workers who might do the work will never be given the chance to do so.
All Bravo Sierra aside, when was the last time you ever saw an American worker harvesting a crop by stoop labor?
Not harvesting a crop riding in a John Deere.
Harvesting a crop by stoop labor.
When was the last time you ever saw that?
Really.
All Bravo Sierra aside.
You brought up the non-sequitur thing earlier, so I have to ask, what does health insurance costs have to do with Young Republicans being forced to take down a sign on an issue they feel strongly about?
I have no idea what an insurance policy for a farmer costs. And after a Border Patrol agent in Yuma, AZ told me about the time he busted illegals in Florida and was ripped a new butt hole by his supervisor because the orange grove owner contacted his congressperson and threatened that if it happened again he was going to put a claim in against his government (read taxpayer) backed insurance policy, I don’t care what it costs.
And please show US some of that documented history of crops rotting in the field. How do I know those farmers just didn’t miss a deadline for applying for the taxpayer supported rewards program for not growing anything and decided to slurp from the public trough from a different direction?
What would me answering your assinine questions about how much I or my son or his friends or their children or their children’s children prove? Where’s the sequitur thing in that?
As for availability of school children to work the fields, again your lameness is showing. Check the unemployment numbers. School children can be skipped this harvest.
Look, I don’t know what kind of attention you pay to reality but a couple of years ago a college professor... here, read it yourself...
from http://righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/2006/03/debunking_the_m.html
“Phillip Martin, an economist at the University of California, Davis, has demolished the argument that a crackdown on illegals would ruin it, or be a hardship to consumers. Most farming — livestock, grains, etc. — doesn’t heavily rely on hired workers. Only about 20 percent of the farm sector does, chiefly those areas involving fresh fruit and vegetables.
The average “consumer unit” in the U.S. spends $7 a week on fresh fruit and vegetables, less than is spent on alcohol, according to Martin. On a $1 head of lettuce, the farm worker gets about 6 or 7 cents, roughly 1/15th of the retail price. Even a big run-up in the cost of labor can’t hit the consumer very hard.
Martin recalls that the end of the bracero guest-worker program in the mid-1960s caused a one-year 40 percent wage increase for the United Farm Workers Union. A similar wage increase for legal farm workers today would work out to about a 10-dollar-a-year increase in the average family’s bill for fruit and vegetables. Another thing happened with the end of the bracero program: The processed-tomato industry, which was heavily dependent on guest workers and was supposed to be devastated by their absence, learned how to mechanize and became more productive.”
Who’s spreading the BS, Ferdinand?
Yeah, I read your U.S. Navy/Guest Worker program piece. And as I said earlier, the political manipulators have made guest worker programs anachromatic. Hey, I think I just invented a word. I meant anachronistic.
Gates and other big time influencers of government are working to gain an increase of a special HB program so they can bring in more Indian computer/software workers. To you, that may not be true “Guest Workership”. But that’s how it’s worked today.
Your clinging to a pointless argument that seems more based in semantics than reality adds nothing positive to this discussion.
Your attempts to sell this non-existant ‘guest worker’ program discussion that you, the non-sequitur specialist Polybius, is forcing on a group of Americans alarmed over the possibility of another president willing to jam amnesty down our throats, will always translate into an Amnesty discussion.
Because amnesty has nothing good to offer the people of the United States. And John McCain wants amnesty. That’s what this discussion is all about. The good of the people of the United States vs what’s good for the people McCain represents.
Those same people who control the ‘free market’ you claim is working so well. Maybe you will segue into the definition of free market next time and share it with us.
Face it brother. It’s going to take more than a guest worker program to stop the flood of invaders. It’s going to take more than a fence. It’s certainly going to take more than empty promises from a candidate with a history of wanting to sell amnesty. Because amnesty is a known excitor of invaders.
That’s why amnesty comes up when this usless guest worker program fantasy is mentioned.
If you had been here more then a few minutes you might understand.
PS: I don’t have to explain a damn thing to you.
Directly, nothing.
The discussion started with the sign. As the discussion developed over many replies, YOU brought up the point that all a farmer had to do was to insure his crops in a "free market". I pointed out that in a "free market" insurance companies do not take foolish risks. Insurance on a crops with a high risk of failure would be either prohibitively expensive or not available at all.
As far a the "Young Republicans being forced to take down a sign", the grown ups realize that the National Convention is not your local public park. It is a private event and its purpose is not to preach to the choir but to get the rest of America to vote with us.
They know that what is red meat to the faithful might not play very well with the undecideds they have three days on national TV to win over.
"Young Republicans" or "Young Democrats" are not allowed to edit the advertising strategy as they see fit any more that Ford allows a college student to nationally advertise to other college students that they should ask Dad to buy them a Ford truck because it has this place behind the seat that can hide open liquor bottles really well.
I have no idea what an insurance policy for a farmer costs.
I just told you.
In a high risk crop, it is either unaffordable or not available at all.
I understand the "free market" and so do farmers. We do not need any lectures about the "free markets".
a Border Patrol agent in Yuma, AZ told me about the time he busted illegals in Florida and was ripped a new butt hole by his supervisor because the orange grove owner contacted his congressperson and threatened that if it happened again he was going to put a claim in against his government (read taxpayer) backed insurance policy,
Now we can have a lesson on Free Market 101. If the farmer has never had a claim, he us considered acceptable risk. After the farmer makes a claim, he is not considered a good risk. After a third claim, the farmer is uninsurable. So, the farmer just can't use insurance as guaranteed income.
Free Market 101 also shows that oranges are Big Business with Big Money.
Politics 101 shows that Congresscritters are whores that will sell their grandmothers for a $100,000 campaign contribution. So, unless you or I have the Big Money to bribe our Congresscritter with millions, your Congresscritter is going to follow the Money.
That is where Free Market 101 meets Politics 101 to create Real World 101.
Your conversation with that Trooper shows EXACTLY what what I wrote in Post 290:
**********
You talk about how "the free market works".
I have already said multiple times how the "free market" IS working.
The farmers are not economically stupid and they have absolutely no intention of going bankrupt. Without a Guest Worker Program, they resort to illegal aliens and they bribe your Congresscritter to keep the supply of illegal aliens streaming over the border ..... day after day, month after month, year after year.
THAT is how the "free market" IS working.
"Guest Worker Program Over My Dead Body" + Farmers that DO know how the free markets work + Congresscritters bribed with farm campaign contributions + Illegal aliens = FLOOD OF ILLEGAL ALIENS WITH NO END IN SIGHT
**********
The solution to the flood if illegal alien problem is in Post 283.
You just have pay attention to the realities of Free Markets 101, Politics 101 and then simply be smarter than a colony of ants.
Anybody who does not take a hard stand against illegal entry into this country cannot make a valid claim to be tough on terrorism. You cannot fight global jihad in other nations while leaving your own backdoor open and vulnerable. It's madness.
And I pointed out it was a government insurance program subsidized by taxpayers. That's not quite free market insurance. You've told me nothing about the cost of insurance to a farmer.
You've also not provided any evidence of crops rotting in the fields.
Nor have you addressed economist Philip Martin's study where the elimination of the highly acclaimed and sorely missed guest worker Bracero program resulted in increased wages for farm workers and a needed push into mechanization for farmers who no longer had guest workers legally available.
The farmers are not economically stupid and they have absolutely no intention of going bankrupt. Without a Guest Worker Program, they resort to illegal aliens and they bribe your Congresscritter to keep the supply of illegal aliens streaming over the border ..... day after day, month after month, year after year.
Evidentially, the farmers who use illegals, who bribe members of Congress and who cry over the loss of a taxpayer supported guest worker program are not only stupid, they are morally bankrupt traitors who could care less about the well-being of this Nation and most likely look upon taxpaying Americans as fools to be taken advantage of.
UNlike you, I do not see that type of person worthy of my concern and certainly not my tax dollars.
Feudalism. Local warlords vying for each other for power. The rise of crooked potentates to whom citizens owe their true allegiance.
In other words: Mexico
By engendering disrespect for the law our nation's leaders, (including John Syndey McCain, GW Bush and Teddy Kennedy) do more damage to the nation and to our society than Osama bin Laden could ever imagine in his wildest dreams.
And you DON'T take McCain's word at great discount?
Tell me: What planet have you been on?
And I pointed out it was a government insurance program subsidized by taxpayers.
TRANSLATION: In the "free market", such high risk insurance is not available at all. Yet, someone (was it you or somebody else I was responding to?) brought insurance into the discussion by suggesting that, even if farmers could not get legal pickers and their crops rotted in the fields, it was no big deal because they could simply make an insurance claim.
That's not quite free market insurance. You've told me nothing about the cost of insurance to a farmer.
READ MY LIPS: "The cost is prohibitive. Private insurance won't tough that risk at any premium."
You've also not provided any evidence of crops rotting in the fields.
Of course they are not rotting. They hire illegals.
As to not providing evidence, I have already posted, twice, a link where the farmers say that, without the pickers, their crops would rot.
You yourself posted that the Florida grower called his Congressman to say that he could either protect his supply of illegal pickers or have the U.S. Government insurance pay for the rotted crop.
Nor have you addressed economist Philip Martin's study where the elimination of the highly acclaimed and sorely missed guest worker Bracero program resulted in increased wages for farm workers and a needed push into mechanization for farmers who no longer had guest workers legally available.
Which is true up to a point. The point being that some crops CANNOT be harvested mechanically. If they could be, then the issue would not be around 44 years later and a Florida grower would not putting such pressure on a Congressman that is in turn exerting such political pressure that the supervisor of a State Trooper in your state "chewed him a new a**hole", in your own words, for detaining illegals.
"When orange pickers are outlawed, only outlaws will have their oranges picked".
The farmers are not economically stupid and they have absolutely no intention of going bankrupt.
I agree. They are exerting their financial muscle to get State Troopers chewed out for detaining illegals.
THAT is the reality of the current "free market".
Evidently, the farmers who use illegals, who bribe members of Congress and who cry over the loss of a taxpayer supported guest worker program are not only stupid, they are morally bankrupt traitors who could care less about the well-being of this Nation and most likely look upon taxpaying Americans as fools to be taken advantage of.
By Jove, I think he's got it!!!
Newsflash!
Most people in business and in politics are NOT patriots.
As far as "taxpayer supported guest worker program", I fail to see your point.
Minute Maid Orange Juice Company contracts for 10,000 workers, pays Governments fees for 10,000 permits, Minute Maid Orange Juice Company pays transportation round trip for the workers, Minute Maid Orange Juice Company get their crops picked, the workers pay taxes to the U.S. Government and the country is not flooded with illegals that State Troopers cannot detained without getting his supervisor to "chew him a new a**hole".
I fail to see how that translates into "taxpayer funded"?
Unlike you, I do not see that type of person worthy of my concern and certainly not my tax dollars.
We are not doing it for that person. We are doing it because, as long as multi-billion crops will rot in the fields without workers, companies will have them picked either legally or illegally.
Denying the needed legal workers just breeds lawlessness and corruption.
Just as that State Trooper with the new a**hole.
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