Georgians Eager to Rebuild Army

New York Times ^ | September 2, 2008 | C. J. Chivers and Thom Shanker

[reaganaut1]

TBILISI, Georgia — Just weeks after Georgia’s military collapsed in panic in the face of the Russian Army, its leaders hope to rebuild and train its armed forces as if another war with Russia is almost inevitable.

Georgia is already drawing up lists of options, including restoring the military to its prewar strength or making it a much larger force with more modern equipment, like air-defense systems, modern antiarmor rockets and night-vision devices.

Officials at the Pentagon, State Department and White House confirmed that the Bush administration was examining what would be required to rebuild Georgia’s military, but stressed that no decisions had been made. The choices each pose difficult foreign policy questions.

Georgia’s decision to attack Russian and South Ossetian forces raises questions about the wisdom of further United States investment in the Georgian military, which in any case would further alienate Russia. Not doing so could lead to charges of abandoning Georgia in the face of Russian threats.

[austrian]

no this is called buisness and geo politics. why should we shoot ourself in the feet? georgia is not a problem of the EU. it´s not a member. why should the EU impose sanctions which would hurt Russia and Europe (to do georgias president a favour?) if it´s not necessary. what do we win
if we sanction russia? why should we throw away hundreds of millions of euros for not doing buisness with them?

[MarMema]

On social issues, it campaigns against drinking and smoking and advocates a conservative view on issues like abortion and birth control, warning against the use of condoms, for example. Like Mr. Putin himself, who recently seemed to compare the foreign policy of the United States to the Third Reich, Nashi also laces its campaigns and literature with an undercurrent of hostility to Europe and the United States. At the rally promoting ethnic harmony, a poster denounced American adoptions: “In 2005, 3,966 Russian children became citizens of America.”

[MarMema]

It's called doing the right thing. And keeping the world free of fascists.

Europe of all places should know this lesson.

[austrian]

It’s called doing the right thing.

---

doing the right thing?. so you think to first care about your own people is the wrong thing a government should do?
oh the people here shure would love the government when they say hey oil now is 200$ a barrel not because it was needed no but we only desided not to buy from russia anymore because it´s the right thing to do. but who cares lets make it 300$ because we stop buying from iran too because if russia is so bad how can we still buy from iran.
shure our industry will go to hell and we will not be able to compete on the international market anymore. but who cares it was the right thing to do. but we can take confort because hey if we are less competive on the world market it will help others like the US and china to fill this hole.they will make more money while we get poor. this will teach russia and the world what it means to do the right thing. sorry for the sarcasm.
so in our world doing the “right” thing is not that easy as it may sound.

[Lasha]

I was a supporter of Russia in Chechnya because they were fighting terrorists. I cheered when they successfully raided the movie theater and got the bad guys. I sympathized greatly with them over the school hostage crisis. But they are the bad guy in this one and you can't just look away or give up.===

Too bad! The apartment buildings blown up in the outskirts of Moscow was orchestrated by FSB - this has been proved way too long now, although no one likes to admit it. Think for yourself: you are a Chechen and want to make sore on Russians: why would you blow up an apartment block in a borough of Moscow no one can locate on the map; wouldn't you go and blow this in the center of Moscow? But hell, if FSB is doing this, they want to achieve the purposes, but do not want to scare all foreigners off Moscow streets, right? School hostage crises; there are reports already that most of the guys that were in there got away rather easily out, while innocent children were killed; Did you know that it was Russians who started firing at the school without any provocation? Why do you think then the president of North Ossetia was dismissed - they found an easy scape goat. And in the theater! After nearly four days without food and water, it does not take that much of a gas to put everyone to sleep - no they want bloody rampage and killing of hostages...

[MarMema]

But the whole point about Georgia, besides supporting them, is keeping the world safe AND an alternative energy supply.

That is why Cheney is there now. Or in Baku, actually.

[MarMema]

Gamarjoba. And many hugs to you and yours.

[MarMema]

It will get easier the more of a tyrant Russian becomes.
Not to worry.

[MarMema]

Dick Cheney, the US vice-president will arrive in the Caucasus on a mission to prevent Russia from gaining a stranglehold over Central Asia's vast reserves of energy.

Because with Russia, price hikes are the gift that keeps on giving. At any given time, Russia can double the price of keeping warm, whenever Pootin feels so inclined. Or maybe you didn't dust that statue of Stalin in your town square and polish it enough. Whoops. Sorry, heat gets lots more expensive.

[Lasha]

no this is called buisness and geo politics. why should we shoot ourself in the feet? georgia is not a problem of the EU. it´s not a member. why should the EU impose sanctions which would hurt Russia and Europe (to do georgias president a favour?) if it´s not necessary. what do we win
if we sanction russia? why should we throw away hundreds of millions of euros for not doing buisness with them?===

I tell you why - because as soon as this small window called Georgia shuts and Russia gains full control of energy supplies to Europe, it WILL double the price for gas, may be even triple, removing huge chunk of your so cherished GDP. And then they will have enough cash to buy out every public utility company in Western Europe and then old Europe will become a whore to Russia. You REALLY think Russia give a f... about South Ossetia or Abkhazia? They care less about their own people, let alone some “black ass” Caucasians... This is ALL about energy trade, has always been! Chechnia happens to set on or nearby a huge pipeline connecting Azerbaijan with a Russian port on black sea! Why the hell you think they arrested Khodorkovski and put his Ykos into bankruptcy? Because this was THE LARGEST oil company in Russia... A friend of mine told me that Europe would have no problems with divesting from Russia's energy dependence, but this would result in CO2 emission increase and this issue cannot be brought up now... but if not now, then when?

[MarMema]

moscow times

"Russia's resources also cannot be compared to those of the West. This is because Russia has nothing but oil and gas. Our stores sell Turkish clothes, Chinese electronics, Indonesian sneakers, Finnish toilets, Taiwanese cell phones, and so on. Even cement is now cheaper to import from abroad than to produce in Russia."

"But South Ossetians will probably never concede that tens of thousands of Ossetians who live peacefully in Georgia proper. Has it ever occurred to them that the notoriously bloodthirsty Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili hasn't attacked Ossetians in Gori, Tbilisi or Poti, where they are vulnerable and unprotected by South Ossetian leader Eduard Kokoity? It would seem that enclaves like South Ossetia and Abkhazia cannot be defeated. Relying on the full support of their populations -- at least those people who did not run away -- these statelets can survive indefinitely. But there is no rational reason for Russia to support these enclaves -- or for turning itself into a terrorist enclave."

[dixiechick2000]

Bump that, ma’am. ;o)

[MarMema]

because as soon as this small window called Georgia shuts and Russia gains full control of energy supplies to Europe, it WILL double the price for gas, may be even triple, removing huge chunk of your so cherished GDP

Exactly Lasha. Thank you.

[MarMema]

Yes sigh, I am keeping away from all the Palin threads and trying to just have hope.

[dixiechick2000]

You’re a very nice person, and I’m glad you’re here.

Why do the people of Georgia, but not their President, have support of the general public in the EU?

Georgia would rather throw their lot into Russia?

Why?

Given Pooty Poot’s general tendencies as a “former” KGB guy, do you think you can trust him?

Again...I ask...WHY?

[dixiechick2000]

I’m keeping away from here...almost...period.

Sometimes I can’t help it. ;o)

[austrian]

I tell you why - because as soon as this small window called Georgia shuts and Russia gains full control of energy supplies to Europe, it WILL double the price for gas, may be even triple, removing huge chunk of your so cherished GDP....

---

i don´t think so. europe does not stand or fall only because of russian gas. it´s true that it would really hurt
us but we still can buy more from lovely hellholes like iran for example if we are forced to do. and triple the price would force us to do so. but the russians are not idiots. they need the money from the gas and oil trade to EU. so in the long way it would hurt russia more than europe if they would do this. so why should someone hurt himself if not necessary? EU and Russia are in bed with each other right now because of the oil and gas trade. do they have to love each other? No. but as long as everybody gets what he wants it would be stupid to change this.

[Lasha]

us but we still can buy more from lovely hellholes like iran for example if we are forced to do.===

And how exactly you intend to tranport this? gas is a commodity that can only be delivered through pipelines... look at the map... this is sheer geography!

but the russians are not idiots. they need the money from the gas and oil trade to EU. so in the long way it would hurt russia more than europe if they would do this.==

Oh, they are not idiots! that's for sure, but you are consoling yourself with idea that it hurts them more than it does to you... but that only works as long as you have an alternative... once it is gone, you are DEPENDENT on them... Look at Ukraine and price Russia now exerts from them for the gas... you think that's the top of it?

EU and Russia are in bed with each other right now because of the oil and gas trade. do they have to love each other? No. but as long as everybody gets what he wants it would be stupid to change this.===

yeh, but I wonder whether you realize that by the approach all you do is delivering your statehoods, your entire being to Putin! And you REALLY think that that's ALL Russians want from Europe? That they will stop at this? That they, with their aspirations of world dominance, will not seek buying out all Europe, moving your entire GDP to their pockets, enslaving you guys, changing your governments as they deem fit only then to fight the US? Europe deluded itself in thinking that they can cohabit with Russia, but that's not what's on Russia's agenda. Just listen to talks Putin delivers - only in July he was talking about dominance of Russia over entire worlds food supply!

[austrian]

from cia world factbook:
EU Natural gas - imports:
361.2 billion cu m (2005 est.)
EU Natural gas - proved reserves:
3.31 trillion cu m (1 January 2006 est.)

i think this would be enought to hold out some time without
russian gas if forced . (meanwhile we could change gas dependence a lot by building more nuke plants for example).
But as i said before georgia is not “important” enought for the EU to put this all on risk (or even worst start a new cold or maybe hot war over them). the Eu will simply watch what happens and after a short timer there will be buisness as usual between russia and EU because both sides do have zero interest to change this. regardless of the rhetoric that is thrown around right now.

[Lasha]

and how much of those proved reserves are actually deliverable into most of Europe now? What time it takes to build that infrastructure? And how much is a Russian portion in those imports? and what's the projected growth in gas demand in Europe? and don't you realize if Russia succeeds in hiking gas prices, there will be shrinking of European economies - do I really have to explain to you the consequences of that? and what's the expecting timing for building of new nuke reactors? I bet if one continues this way, those nuke reactors will be build by Russians (considering how much Europe will have paid to them by then) and I think we all know how good of builders they are, particularly in this sector.