Georgians Eager to Rebuild Army

New York Times ^ | September 2, 2008 | C. J. Chivers and Thom Shanker

[Lasha]

Or do you think that Russia will consider that it is enough and stop with Georgia? You really think they will not come after Baltic states - these countries have up to 45% of Russians living there... handing out passports that would take them six month and you have a pretext for invasion into a EU country? What are you going to do then? Or are these countries not important to EU either?

[RusIvan]

Again, I point to Afghanistan who succesfully beat the Russians off of them with a few Stinger missiles and AK-47’s. This is a historical fact.==

Afganies didn’t win. Soviet Union just got tired to kill them. When Afgani losses came close to 1.5 millions (against 15 thousands of soviets - 1:100) then even hard core commies began to ask question for what sake that war was? Soviets didn’t wnat to kill whole Afganistan population as teh reslt of war. Soviet army could continue 10 more years but no more Afganies lived there.
So Soviet army just withdrew to stop useless bloodshed.

You are buying the hype on the Russians. The truth is that the 3rd Armored Division pretty much alone knocked off the 4th largest army in the world equipped with Russian stuff. The Israeli Air Force in F-16’s (our average small fighter) took out the entire Syrian Air Force equipped with Russian stuff. ==

What if we exchange Soviet stuff to hands of Isralies and American stuff into hands of Arabs. Would Arabs win then?
I would doubt. That is the key problem. Arabs or Georgians sismply cann’t fight as Europians.
So I conclude: Whatever long you train Arabs or Georgians and whatever advanced stuff you give them they will run again.

The Georgians could make it very painful with the proper defensive equipment and training. ==

The pain they infliced will return back 10 folded. Be sure. Russians know how to fight. See the size of the country.

[RusIvan]

Or do you think that Russia will consider that it is enough and stop with Georgia? You really think they will not come after Baltic states - these countries have up to 45% of Russians living there... handing out passports that would take them six month and you have a pretext for invasion into a EU country? What are you going to do then? Or are these countries not important to EU either?==

If any Baltic president will not MLRS the sleepeing towns at night then Baltic country ar esafe form Russian invasion.

You cann’t get Lasha that your Saaki man asked for it the great deal. We do not need no Georgia whatsoever so as your tiny pipeline. That is why Russian troops stopped and didn’t take Tbilisi. Again Georgia brought it on herself by your insane nationalistic politician.

If now on Geogria will sit quietly and stop her militaristic dreams to retake S.OSetia and Abkhazia then Russia will leave you alone.

[Lasha]

That's big BS, man - I sincerely wish you were right, but you are not! I know you do not believe anything but Russian mass media, but at least read this article and look at the date when it was published... by the way, it lists some Russian GRU officers that were part of South Ossetian government I could not remember the other day....

http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373282

If you do not need Georgia or its tiny pipeline, then get your military out of here and cancel recognition of these pathetic enclaves you refer to as states...

[dirtboy]

Afganies didn’t win. Soviet Union just got tired to kill them.

You're a big fat liar. The Russian people got tired of seeing their sons killed in Afghanistan for nothing.

[austrian]

handing out passports that would take them six month and you have a pretext for invasion into a EU country?

---

who in the EU should want an russian passport?
and the solution would be simple attack an EU country means war
with the EU 27 (this would force NATO to join the war even the invaded country would be not part of the Nato). so i´m pretty shure that russia has no interesst to start WWIII just for fun. Nor do we.

[Lasha]

who in the EU should want an russian passport?===

hm... that's what you think. These guys can ALWAYS finds someone and use this as pretext. Russia knows well seeing how Europeans act that there will never be a WWIII... but have not you heard Medvedev pledging to defend Russian citizens NO MATTER where they are? that includes, my friend, European countries... and to get EU 27 to act takes 27 and it only takes a good friend of Putin like Berluskoni to keep you guys shut for good!

[Lasha]

so i´m pretty shure that russia has no interesst to start WWIII just for fun. Nor do we.===

and do not mix Russia with people that run it! These people make millions of dollars on instigated wars; wars are profit making machines for these guys! you still want to bet on this?

[austrian]

btw. a direct war between the “west” an russia doesn´t make sense as long as you don´t want to end the world as we know it. it wouldn´t matter who would win the “conventional” war. before one side would lose and get defeated they would threat to use nukes if the attacks contine. and then you would have to start from the very beginning by asking yourself the question “do we really want to end our civilizations over this by starting a nuclear war”?

[Lasha]

there are way too many things you can do short of nuclear war!

[austrian]

hm... that’s what you think. These guys can ALWAYS finds someone and use this as pretext. Russia knows well seeing how Europeans act that there will never be a WWIII... but have not you heard Medvedev pledging to defend Russian citizens NO MATTER where they are? that includes, my friend, European countries... and to get EU 27 to act takes 27 and it only takes a good friend of Putin like Berluskoni to keep you guys shut for good!

---

you should really come out of the cold war time warp. things have changed alot since then. btw. if you only own a russian passport EU can kick you out when ever they want. i don´t think russia will fight to protect their tourists do you?
and if you think that the EU would do nothing you should read the lissbon threaty (btw. will come in effect no matter what the irish will say or vote) i don´t know the current situation but this is from the threaty:

7. if a member state is victim of an armed agression the other member states shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all means in their power......

i didn´t post all because i had to write it down because it´s in pdf format so i cannot copy and paste.
btw. no one here is waiting for a russian attack on the EU. this ist just insane. it´s not cold war anymore even some americans keep telling it all day long that russia will attack and conquer europe. WE DO NOT FEAR THEM NOR DO THEY FEAR US for gods sake. this is not just my oppinion this is common sense here on both sides.

[Lasha]

Oh, common sense only one month ago was that Russia would not attack Georgia openly in violation of UN Charter, OECE documents and bunch of crap found in international law you now try to research, but they did... and you cannot kick Russians out because EU just refused to harshen visa facilitation regime. Russians have been testing EU for what it would do and they did nothing and more you do nothing, more Russians will do: Russian intruded airspace of a sovereign state by military planes and what EU did: called onto parties to refrain from provocations... so now, here, they invaded half of the country and what you propose to do; exactly nothing...

I really cannot make you rethink your happy being and a small world of happiness and prosperity you folks created around yourselves, but when Russians will come to get you, it will be too late

[austrian]

so now, here, they invaded half of the country and what you propose to do; exactly nothing...

---

the correct form would be russia invaded half of a country because their insane president invited them to do so out of stupity and EU did nothing because we have no interest do be dragged into a conflict
between a large trading partner (russia) and a lunatic (whom we own nothing) who did every thing he can to bring the world into a crisis. well it didn´t work but just the attempt is insane. the people of georgia have my sympathy but they should get rid of this so called leader. just a example who in this world would give a tv interview on the conflict about russia and pose in front of an EU flag instead of their own flag when his country is not part of the EU. what had he thought that we will send him troops only because he wraps himself in a flag that doesn´t belong to his country?

[Lasha]

really - you really believe Saakashvili for whatever he is caused all of this? you have been reading way too much of Russian propaganda... for a change, please read this and pay particular attention to when this was published!

http://www.jamestown.org/edm/article.php?article_id=2373282

[Lasha]

and if EU had no interest, why in the world your current president was running like crazy brokering ceasefire agreement? may be it would have been better that he and Merkel did not listen to Putin and actually had granted MAP to Georgia back in April, so that none of this would have happened...

[austrian]

really - you really believe Saakashvili for whatever he is caused all of this?

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no i do blame both sides for this conflict but i personal blame Saakashvili for the stupid move to put his own peoples lives at risk by risking a war with russia. georgia has about 5 million people. and if you are that “weak” a leader should be wise enought not to provoke a big country like russia (which he knew has been trigger happy at this point) to fight a war you cannot win.

[austrian]

nd if EU had no interest, why in the world your current president was running like crazy brokering ceasefire agreement? may be it would have been better that he and Merkel did not listen to Putin and actually had granted MAP to Georgia back in April, so that none of this would have happened..

---

ok i admit that saying the EU has NO (not a single one) interest in georgia is not true. i just wanted to point out that the “interest” in georgia is in No proportion about the “interest” the EU has in russia. russia is an important trading partner. georgia is just a small country relatively far away from the EU borders. not nice but politics is dirt buisness.

[RusIvan]

If you do not need Georgia or its tiny pipeline, then get your military out of here and cancel recognition of these pathetic enclaves you refer to as states... ==

Lasha those “enclaves” are not enclaves since they are not inside Georgia. We both know that those people Abkhazians and Osetians was given to Georgia by Josef Stalin the commies dictator. Those who support those “enclaves” in Georgia are just damn stalinists. But we Russians are not.

Georgians waged 4 wars on Osetians alone during last 90 years. 2 in the 1920th (1918, 1920) and 2 again in 1992 and now in 2008. Osetians keep hate your people and do not want live with you in one country. Maybe it is enough of wars? You cann’t force them anyways. They will turn to us everytime to get rid of you. So maybe let it be? Maybe it is better for you to concentrat eon economy and prove everyone on Caucausus that Georgia is the better place? With war Georgia will get nothing.

[RusIvan]

You’re a big fat liar. The Russian people got tired of seeing their sons killed in Afghanistan for nothing.
==

Russian loses about 30000 in car crushes alone each year but soviet army casualties were 15 thousands on 300 millions of teh population of USSR.
SO I do not say that those casualties in Afganistan were unnnoticed but they were far from the level to protest. I presume that the population of Afganistan would run out early then any protest of soviet army casualties gathered momentum.
So it wasn’t no casualties which stopped Soviet-Afgan war but just the senselessness of the depopulating of Afganistan.

[Lasha]

OK, let me get this straight... Baltic states have more importance because they are part of NATO and EU. Georgia wants to become part of NATO, French and German president block MAP and Russia pretty much uses this to invade the country... and now you are weighing interests here. How about the fact that Georgia is part of a lot of other international organizations all of whom provide for territorial integrity of members states, to which organizations all European countries also belong! You know what, either admit that Europe lost all democratic values it cherishes so much in exchange for gas and oil, but then stop branding countries into democratic and nondemocratic as well because it appears not to matter at all. Come on, say it loud and let's be done with this