Georgians Eager to Rebuild Army

New York Times ^ | September 2, 2008 | C. J. Chivers and Thom Shanker

[reaganaut1]

TBILISI, Georgia — Just weeks after Georgia’s military collapsed in panic in the face of the Russian Army, its leaders hope to rebuild and train its armed forces as if another war with Russia is almost inevitable.

Georgia is already drawing up lists of options, including restoring the military to its prewar strength or making it a much larger force with more modern equipment, like air-defense systems, modern antiarmor rockets and night-vision devices.

Officials at the Pentagon, State Department and White House confirmed that the Bush administration was examining what would be required to rebuild Georgia’s military, but stressed that no decisions had been made. The choices each pose difficult foreign policy questions.

Georgia’s decision to attack Russian and South Ossetian forces raises questions about the wisdom of further United States investment in the Georgian military, which in any case would further alienate Russia. Not doing so could lead to charges of abandoning Georgia in the face of Russian threats.

[Arkinsaw]

A fifth of the Afghan population died in that war, and another third fled the country. Some victory.

A lot of Russian died in World War II but they didn't surrender. A lot of British airmen died defending against the mighty Luftwaffe, and civilians in the bombings, when they could have surrendered but they didn't.

I am not buying the roll over and show them your belly cause they are too mean argument. We have beaten the Russians once already in the Cold War and the argument that its impossible to beat them again does not compute.

[redstateconfidential]

DUH the Russkies were defeated. Shamed and left with their tail between their legs.Or do you find Russian defeat unpleasant?

[Decombobulator]

American equipment has only fought outdated export versions of Soviet equipment, ie Iraq and Yugoslavia, and always with overwhelming odds in our favor, ie force multipliers like satellites, jamming planes, etc. The jets/tanks/etc used by Russia itself are an entirely different story.

If the US invested an enormous amoutn of money in the Georgian military (I’m talking tens of billions of dollars, not a few million), then Georgia would be able to give the Russians a bloody nose. But unlike western countries, that wouldn’t deter Russia. If the US suffered the same numbers of casualties in Iraq or Afghanistan as Russia did in Afghanistan or even Chechnya, millions of Americans would be storming the whitehouse and the president would have no choice but to call it off. THe Russian leadership has no such worries. The Russian population is so depressed that they regard large casualties as acceptable. Secondly, you can’t just give a lot of advanced equipment to someone and expect them to know how to use it. It takes years to develop the necessary training. LOok at how poorly Egypt/Syria did versus Israel in ‘67 despite having some fairly advanced equipment.

The simple truth is that there is no way for Georgia to defend itself against Russia. Russia knows it and the US knows it, the only one who doesn’t seem to know it is Sakashvili.

[austrian]

Earth to clueless, Russia will attack them again and swallow the entire country whenever they bloody well feel like it, excuses be damned.

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this was exactly my point. they will (and can) attack them when ever they feel like. but i don´t think the georgians should invite them to do this. and starting to ream now is more than a simple invitation. i guess putin would send the georgian president flowers and a warm hug for this great present to russia. (bevore he will send the bombs) don´t you think?

[Arkinsaw]

American equipment has only fought outdated export versions of Soviet equipment, ie Iraq and Yugoslavia, and always with overwhelming odds in our favor, ie force multipliers like satellites, jamming planes, etc. The jets/tanks/etc used by Russia itself are an entirely different story.

If the US invested an enormous amoutn of money in the Georgian military (I’m talking tens of billions of dollars, not a few million), then Georgia would be able to give the Russians a bloody nose. But unlike western countries, that wouldn’t deter Russia. If the US suffered the same numbers of casualties in Iraq or Afghanistan as Russia did in Afghanistan or even Chechnya, millions of Americans would be storming the whitehouse and the president would have no choice but to call it off. THe Russian leadership has no such worries. The Russian population is so depressed that they regard large casualties as acceptable. Secondly, you can’t just give a lot of advanced equipment to someone and expect them to know how to use it. It takes years to develop the necessary training. LOok at how poorly Egypt/Syria did versus Israel in ‘67 despite having some fairly advanced equipment.

The simple truth is that there is no way for Georgia to defend itself against Russia. Russia knows it and the US knows it, the only one who doesn’t seem to know it is Sakashvili.

I again point out Afghanistan, to whom we didn't provide that much really in comparison. We can certainly equip the Georgians with enough defensive equipment to make it very, very, painful for the Russians to invade again.

Be glad Reagan is not here or it would be done.

[austrian]

Again, I point to Afghanistan who succesfully beat the Russians off of them with a few Stinger missiles and AK-47’s. This is a historical fact.

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you cannot compare geogia to afghanistan. most of the afghan fighters are religious fanatics. they have no problem hanging around in caves and mountains for the next 20 years if nessersary (because the towns are controlled by the “winners”). nor do they care about their own civillians. as far as i know georgians do not believe in 72 virgins for example. maybe they like their cities and people who are living there. and this is why a small country like gergia can never win a war against a big country like russia.

[Arkinsaw]

you cannot compare geogia to afghanistan. most of the afghan fighters are religious fanatics. they have no problem hanging around in caves and mountains for the next 20 years if nessersary (because the towns are controlled by the “winners”). nor do they care about their own civillians. as far as i know georgians do not believe in 72 virgins for example. maybe they like their cities and people who are living there. and this is why a small country like gergia can never win a war against a big country like russia.

Yes, you can make comparisons. We gave the Afghans a few Stinger missiles, AK-47's and ammo, some hand grenades and some anti-tank rockets. They successfully defeated the USSR and essentially started the waterfall that led to the dissolution of the whole rotten mess.

Giving the Georgians advanced surface-to-air capability, anti-tank mines, layered anti-tank defense, A-10's and training, F-16's and training can be compared.

I heard the same stuff about supplying arms to the Afghans from the Democrats for years. Luckily some people did not listen and provided the necessary arms.

[redstateconfidential]

[Arkinsaw]

And also, Ukraine should be NATO today, and if the Europeans veto that one again then we need to arm Ukraine to the teeth as well.

[Arkinsaw]

Putin is having a good old time right now. He should be thankful that his time doesn’t include a Reagan. But he probably shouldn’t push his luck all the way.

[redstateconfidential]

Thats just a little gift to all the Putin Lovers.Now where is that wicked video of a Hind Gunships getting blown up on a daily basis at the Kabul airport back when the first crates of Reagen’s Diplomacy first got opened....

[MarMema]

For that matter the chechens gave the russians one hell of a good run.

[Arkinsaw]

Thats just a little gift to all the Putin Lovers.Now where is that wicked video of a Hind Gunships getting blown up on a daily basis at the Kabul airport back when the first crates of Reagen’s Diplomacy first got opened....

I was a supporter of Russia in Chechnya because they were fighting terrorists. I cheered when they successfully raided the movie theater and got the bad guys. I sympathized greatly with them over the school hostage crisis. But they are the bad guy in this one and you can't just look away or give up.

[Arkinsaw]

For that matter the chechens gave the russians one hell of a good run.

I supported them against the Chechens. They were fighting people who took hostages and tried to blow up apartment buildings. I felt they were fully justified there. Not here.

[MarMema]

Me too, but it is time to give the chechens a hand. They were watching the russian troops build up on the border days before the war, and supported a lot of instability in Ingushetia at the same time.

In fact they gave the russians there a lot of grief, which is why the russians took that website man out and shot him.

[austrian]

And also, Ukraine should be NATO today, and if the Europeans veto that one again then we need to arm Ukraine to the teeth as well.

---

europe will veto the ukraine right now. and you can be shure that europe will Veto especially georgia again and again for at least the next 10 or 20 years this is for shure.

[MarMema]

But we have been propping up Georgia for many years with aid. They were in the top three countries for aid for the last few years. One year they were number one.

And it is the pipeline we are supporting, and the fight against Russian dominance of energy in Europe.

The world is not a good place when Russia can terrorize all of Europe into doing what it wants. Eventually it will reach us, one way or the other.

[FreePoster]

I don’t think it makes any difference to follow along Russia’s narrative and address their complaints. Russia’s response to missile defense for Poland was something like, “We will bomb you as a priority.” For Russia, if you make it more difficult for them to kill you, they consider that a threat.

[Arkinsaw]

europe will veto the ukraine right now. and you can be shure that europe will Veto especially georgia again and again for at least the next 10 or 20 years this is for shure.

Oh I am sure, because they haven't learned anything about confronting such things when they are brewing rather than later. So I am sure you are right. It is also a very bad decision.

[MarMema]

No not true. NATO is holding a special emergency meeting in Tbilisi in September to help them get moving and into NATO as soon as possible. Georgia will be in NATO and soon.

The supreme commander of NATO spent a few weeks there just recently helping them re-assess things.