Posted on 08/18/2008 9:35:10 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
With five seats on the State Board of Education up for grabs this year, education advocates say how children learn about evolution hangs in the balance -- and who voters choose could affect Kansas' national reputation.
A frequent flip-flop between moderate and conservative majorities on the 10-member board has resulted in the state changing its science standards four times in the past eight years.
Conservatives have pushed for standards casting doubt on evolution, and moderates have said intelligent design does not belong in the science classroom.
In 2007, a new 6-4 moderate majority removed standards that called evolution into question.
This year, none of the three moderates whose seats are up for election are running again. Only one of the two conservative incumbents is running for re-election...
(Excerpt) Read more at kansas.com ...
I guess it's "The First Amendment for me, but not for thee."
...that is, the federal government can’t do anything else other than what the delegated powers of the Constitution grant them.
Amendment 14: excerpt from Section 1. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
==How about their opinion on the 1st Amendment, which is BASED upon the Virginia law?
See previous reply.
==How is discounting their voluminous writings on the principle of Church and State respecting their original intent?
See previous reply. Etc, etc, etc.
==And you still have not answered my questions about God and dice, after claiming I never asked it in the first place. I have now asked it of you twice. Why no answer?
Dice can be both God’s will and random to our frame of reference in the same way God can know the beginning from the end and yet at the same time grant us free will.
==You also cannot tell me how you propose that epigenetic mechanisms can derive genetic variation rather than phenotypic variation. It seems your source confirmed that genetic variation is due to mutation and that epigenetics changes phenotype. Can you address this discrepancy between what you claim and what your source said?
==It seems your source confirmed that genetic variation is due to mutation and that epigenetics changes phenotype.
Do you concede that the Darwinists are now admitting that they were wrong about random mutation producing phenotype changes?
==You also cannot tell me how you propose that epigenetic mechanisms can derive genetic variation rather than phenotypic variation...Can you address this discrepancy between what you claim and what your source said?
How about the following:
“It is hypothesized that the generation of mutations in the error-prone replications of the epigenetically reprogrammed cells is not random. The mutations match epigenetic alterations in the cellular genome, namely gain of function mutations in the case of hypomethylation and loss of functions in the case of hypermethylation. In addition, continuing proliferation of the cells imposed by signaling in SSE speeds up the natural selection of the mutant cells favoring the survival of the cells with mutations that are beneficial in the environment. In this way, a stress-induced replication of the cells epigenetically reprograms their genome for quick adaptation to stressful environments providing an increased rate of mutations, epigenetic tags to beneficial mutations and quick selection process. In combination, these processes drive the origin of the transformed mammalian cells, cancer development and progression. Support from genomic, biochemical and medical studies for the proposed hypothesis, and its implementations are discussed.”
http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/26/8/1323
==Maybe that is why the 14th Amendment was ratified according to our founders vision of an amendable Constitution.
I thought we were talking about the original intent of the Bill of Rights? So now you want to talk about the 14th Amendment. Ok, but before we move on TO THE NEXT TOPIC, do you concede that the original intent of the founders was that the Bill of Rights was to apply solely to the federal government and not to the states?
I’m no big fan of political correctness.
And alot of little “problems” like these correct themselves.
When I was a kid, that was a funny question...the kids and most of the time even the teacher got a chuckle out of a question like that. Which in and of itself is important in breaking up the boredom and having some fun while learning.
At the same time, if mosquitos carry disease, and seem to offer absolutely no redeeming value to anything or anyone, to a child it’s a valid and wondrous question.
We of course understand how important mosquitos are in carrying disease, or even providing food to birds, frogs, fish...and so on and so on.
Back to when I was a kid...that was all there was to it.
That was that special time when people spoke freely of God, realizing he was in the background while we learned science and everything else. Our teachers, parents and all adults around us believed this and those few that didn’t, we were unaware of. But I’m sure they were there. And they weren’t threatened in any way.
Conversely, we were there to learn about science and that’s what we did. While we made little references from time to time in (every) class about God, we didn’t so much get into long discussions about what God does, why He did this or didn’t do that, I’m sure we did, but it was very infrequent as if some appreciable time in each class was spent on injecting religion, it just didn’t happen.
IF the teacher was aggravated, it was because the child was merely being disruptive and it MOST CERTAINLY had nothing whatsoever to do with religion being infused into science class, when someone made a reference to God!
Today...as the liberals have demanded we slowly lose our identity and this religious freedom, become one with the world and embrace multiculturalism and slowly destroy this country, we’re more likely to hear this question posed as a reference to Allah, or Buddha but that too wouldn’t bother me in the very least.
Teachers weren’t fixated on the PC NEA manifesto
back then, and shockingly enough, schools, while not without their problems, were not on the road to disaster, or broken beyond repair either.
In short, we weren’t socialized, we were taught.
It’s something we need desperately to get back to.
Here in Georgia it’s still somewhat like that, but in other areas, one sees the PC idiocy come to fruition. Ramming the homsexual agenda down throats, and myriads of horror stories to the point people home school or move.
Here we’re mostly conservative, mostly Christian, but it’s VASTLY different than when I was a kid. Now there’s an air of fear, a closeness between the adults and kids that broken by confusion, not just because of the God isn’t welcome issue but like I said because of the PC socialism.
I used to think we were more insulated from the madness fom a good part of the rest of the country. Georgia is trending red state more than ever, electing the first Republican governor since the civil war and so on.
And alot of people here simply would not tolerate someone DEMANDING the kids not sing Christmas carols or putting up a Christmas Tree like you see in NYC and other areas.
But a couple of things gave me a serious wake up call...the Georgia ACLU threatening the school board here with legal action if the word Christmas weren’t removed from the school calendar, a FEDERAL HOLIDAY. And they folded like a tent.
No parental involvement. No notifications. Just allow the Anti-Christian nazis to bully them around, illegally at that!
The other thing was my daughter had a shirt on that wasn’t quite the right shade of blue...navy or light blue but not royal blue polo shirts are allowed...so they made her change into a t shirt with the school logo which is the only other shirt allowed for a school function.
Seems they ran out of the logo t-shirts that day, so they made her wear a plain navy blue t-shirt. So I pointed out they forced her to change one out of reg. shirt for another out of reg. shirt.
To what end?
Come to find out, royal blue was authorized in the first place!
When I was a kid this incompetence not only wasn’t tolerated, but teachers weren’t protected by unions like this either!
But that’s how it is.
At any and all costs the vision is to ensure that God doesn’t infect science, meanwhile we’re all just to ignore the global warming cult of junk science.
I’m not buying.
You people angry with God better get a grip! Science is being eroded behind your back while you’re fixated on your God-hate!
You know who you are!
Kids can’t play dodgeball, or keep score cause like Al Franken everyone’s a winner!
There are several problems with schools and science class and God isn’t on the list.
But confusing kids and creating an inherent animosity between normal Christian children and the godless liberal NEA/ACLU agenda, there’s little wonder schools are broken.
As I pointed out, godless liberal socialism is failed policy!
One need only see how objective they are and these results by looking at:
journalism
education
politics
courts
etc.
Add reading comprehension to your looooong list of homework tonight.
But to be perfectly honest, until you get some assistance with your hate-God issues, it’ll be as useful to you as this waste of time on you has been for me.
C.S. Lewis was once asked if animals go to heaven—to include mosquitos. He said he didn’t know if animals have an afterlife, but he suggested a hell for humans could be very easily combined with a heaven for mosquitos :o)
One of the epigenetic responses to stress is to turn on genes that will increase mutations and turn off genes that repair mutations. It itself is not changing the genetics, only the way in which the genetic program is being expressed. In this case the epigenetic program is maximizing the chance of error prone replication to come across a solution to the stress, much the way error prone PCR is used in directed evolution to derive novel proteins with beneficial properties.
Once again Epigenetics can control phenotype (it is most certainly not the only determinant of phenotype)but it does not change the actual gene being expressed; that is accomplished by an increased mutation rate.
“a stress-induced replication of the cells epigenetically reprograms their genome for quick adaptation to stressful environments providing an increased rate of mutations, epigenetic tags to beneficial mutations and quick selection process.
Now if mutations were not essential to the ability of living systems to adapt to stress, why would the epigenetic program increase mutation rates and downregulate repair when the cell was under stress?
FUNNY....with my wife, it’s spiders.
There’s no explaining to her that they control alot of insects either, but ya can’t blame her being bitten by brown recluses TWICE.
Sorry, but I somehow missed you post where you provided a scientific alternative to evolution. It's a shame if you don't have one, because most of this thread has been taken up with bitching and moaning about not being able to teach alternatives. And here you have an entire state that has guaranteed the right of teachers and school boards to teach scientific alternatives to evolution.
“Dice can be both God’s will and random to our frame of reference in the same way God can know the beginning from the end and yet at the same time grant us free will.”GGG
So why do you seem to assume that “random” is synonymous with “God has no control over the process”?
Many things that affect our lives and our salvation may seem indistinguishable from randomness but I don’t for a second assume that means they are out of God’s power to control or predict.
Why should evolution be any different from the thousands of other factors that have a random component that affect our lives from the very moment of our creation as a random shuffle of our grandparents DNA to the effect of a random mutation to a gene in a brain cell that gives someone brain cancer and kills them? God is still in control, even if the process is demonstrably random.
Obviously there is no lesson plan.
Creationism ===> Creation "science" ===> Intelligent design ===> Critical thinking, teach the controversy, its only a theory, etc. ad nauseam...
Its all a dodge to get fundamentalist Christianity taught in the schools as first, an alternative to, and then a replacement for, the theory of evolution and most of the other sciences with which creationists disagree.
In other words, they really want creationism taught either as science or in place of science.
The lack of a lesson plan, or even a sketchy curriculum, is telling.
What do you want to bet if any teachers actually try to teach the "scientific alternatives to evolution" it will be the same anti-evolution and anti-science nonsense we see on Answers in Genesis and this website; nonsense which was been considered and discarded by science generations or centuries ago.
Creationism is specifically ruled out by the law (which was written by the Discovery Institute).
But it interesting after thousands and thousands of posts to this and similar threads, and after being given a chance by a state government, no one has come forward with a list of things to teach.
But it interesting after thousands and thousands of posts to this and similar threads, and after being given a chance by a state government, no one has come forward with a list of things to teach.
Well, they're certainly not passing these silly laws to teach better science!
For such a definitive answer, I take it that you must be adept in the sciences, perhaps a geologist.
That being the case, how is it that the Great Flood would have caused rocks and strata that are just 5700 years old, look as if they were hundreds of millions or many billions years old?
==One of the epigenetic responses to stress is to turn on genes that will increase mutations and turn off genes that repair mutations.
Is the turning on of the genes random, or by design? Are the increased mutations intiated by random, or by design? Is the turning off genes random, or by design?
==In this case the epigenetic program is maximizing the chance of error prone replication to come across a solution to the stress, much the way error prone PCR is used in directed evolution to derive novel proteins with beneficial properties.
Would you say that they are both directed, or just PCR?
==Now if mutations were not essential to the ability of living systems to adapt to stress, why would the epigenetic program increase mutation rates and downregulate repair when the cell was under stress?
Maybe it tries to adapt by matching its code to the feedback of the new environment. Maybe it knows what it’s looking for once it has found it, and thus must downregulate repair so this strategy does not defeat itself. Who knows. Epigenetics is still a new field. All I’m trying to point out to you is that the more they find out, the less random adaptation becomes.
PS...Just as Creation/ID predicts.
==God is still in control, even if the process is demonstrably random.
Granted. But if we extend your analogy, then it is random mutation that is the illusion, not intelligent design.
I’m just shocked...all this moaning and groaning about keeping God out of science class and you still somehow missed what it is EXACTLY that you’re endlessly fretting over and complaining about?
Sheesh, maybe you’re getting all riled up over nothing all this time!?
Maybe it’s nothing more than a few paragraphs in a book in chapter one, and you mean to tell me all this time you were worried to death there’d be music and crying and kids crawling on their knees...and finding God in science class ???
What a real kick in the head THAT would be, ‘eh?
BTW, as I’ve said all along, keep evolution, just allow students to understand that there is another theory that better explains to some folks our origins and it’s called “intelligent design” that explains some of the gaping holes in evolution theory.
I don’t know if I’d tweak it any per se, or rename it (yet again) which IMO was a mistake because even though it is the nature of Christians to bend over backwards to accomodate those that disagree with them, more people now understand that there simply IS no negotiating with fascists...
but a theory that supposes there indeed IS ‘intelligence’ as well as purposeful ‘design’ in ‘creation’, call it creationism, ID I don’t really care what it’s called, and you could have a big bang event just as the godless do I suppose...it’s all conjecture and therefore indeed theory after all.
and there IS order, and purpose, and design and not so much randomness, (although there could be some) and all we know was NOT NECESSARILY as evolution theory/Darwinism proposes.
If you’re searching for details, I don’t know how important that is in the lower grades, but can be introduced just like concepts are for any subject as you progress through the grades.
I’m not a teacher of theories of origin science to young children, I teach scientific principles to adults in nursing and use nursing care plans to teach, so if you seriously thought I was going to come up with some elaborate pages long ID theory, then you really SHOULD be sorry...
to yourself!
I’m sure competent Christian grade school science teachers will come up with something you can dwell on soon enough though!
You’d think that someone who puts all his eggs in the one basket of evolution would have SOME concept of patience!
but there IS that nagging aspect of godless socialism and petulant god-hate thing going on with you though, so...
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