....dotting the pristine landscape......
Posted on 08/03/2008 1:59:42 PM PDT by kathsua
Perhaps it would clarify the wind issue if some basic facts were understood. The term is WECS: Wind Energy Conversion Systems, not "farms," "ranches," or "parks." The structures are industrial-scale turbines.
WECS will produce small amounts of energy with an efficiency range averaging 35 percent at most locations. WECS in Kansas in operation or under construction have the ability to produce 1,014 megawatts of electricity at maximum production; less than a quarter of that electricity stays in Kansas.
WECS will not replace conventional coal, gas or nuclear plants, because wind energy is intermittent, unpredictable, unreliable and expensive and cannot be stored in commercial quantities.
WECS will not reduce our consumption of oil. Three percent of oil is used nationwide and 1 percent is used in Kansas for "peaking" periods when electricity is in high demand and wind cannot be counted on.
WECS will pay money to very few landowners. Elk River benefits four landowners; only one is local.
WECS will transfer massive amounts of taxpayer dollars to wind developers and owners, 65 percent nationwide are foreign; 14 out of the 17 in Kansas are foreign owned. Benefits include PTC (Production Tax Credits), rapid depreciation schedules and electricity sales.
Iberdrola of Spain, owner of Elk River, realized over $9.9 million in PTC allowances in 2007. Foreign companies are not regulated by the Kansas Corporation Commission. There are no state or federal regulations of any kind on WECS. Few Kansas counties have wind regulations.
WECS will force consumers to pay for their electricity three times: to build the WECS, build conventional power as backup, and additional transmission lines to carry power from the WECS to the grid.
WECS will not produce large economic benefits to a community as evidenced by records from Gray County (Montezuma), or Butler County (Elk River). Elk River has produced seven jobs. Most employees live outside the community. Construction crews and vehicles were from out of state.
WECS will pay most counties PILOT payments (Payment in Lieu of Taxes). Considered a "gift" to the county, a "payment without consideration," it is not legally enforceable.
WECS will be totally tax-exempt in Kansas unless the current law is changed. WECS will not substantially reduce greenhouse gas, since conventional plants kept in "spinning reserve" to take up slack when wind dies are less efficient.
WECS will contribute to the division and disruption of communities. Riley, Geary, Wabaunsee, Morris, Chase, Butler, Lincoln, Ellsworth, and Ellis counties have all experienced community division involving a wind project. Projects have disrupted communities, split neighbors and even divided families.
WECS will contribute to the destruction and fragmentation of the last remnants of our prairies and open spaces. Elk River's 8,000 acres of beautiful native prairie are now scarred with 100 turbine foundations, trenching to all turbines and about 22 miles of road. The destruction in progress along I-70 at the Smoky Hills wind complex on 25,000 acres of mixed grass prairie shows how native grasslands are turned into an industrial complex that dominates the horizon.
Few developers or power purchasers care about the destruction of the prairie. The notable exceptions are Westar and KCP&L who have met with conservation groups and landowners before developing in order to locate their projects more responsibly.
The governor has wisely encouraged developers to leave a portion of the Flint Hills undeveloped, but all open grasslands are at risk.
Rose Z. Bacon ranches with her husband, Kent, in the Flint Hills of Morris County. She was a member of the Governor's Wind and Prairie Task Force.
Wind alone is not adequate.
For what ever reason even the OBVIOUS escapes people. What if it's NOT a windy day? You cannot STORE the power.
I know wind cannot do it alone but still think it is a viable source of a lot of energy. BTW, having lived in Western Kansas, it is pretty darn reliable. Maybe not near 100% but it seemed to blow all the time.
There are all sorts of things wrong with wind energy; as the article describes.
However, the energy can be stored. The economics may never be favourable; but the technology is already here. Storage methods include: batteries; storing pressurized air in abandoned gas wells, to generate power with pneumatic motors; and pumping water to reservoirs to generate hydro power, when needed.
Some of the energy can be sent over the grid, to smooth peak demands in different time zones (this is already being done for base load generators).
Paging Mr Obvious!!
US THE OLD KG&E CUSTOMERS!!!! BS
This wind energy business is going to make a few people a LOT of money. First, it costs way too much to initially get into, so only a few will build and own these things. In the short run, tax credits and carbon offset and all the other global warming voodoo will contribute to these very few owners’ profits. And then when oil supplies truly are low, (and/or outlawed) these very few owners will have the best locations in the country monopolised and will jack up the price of electricity making big profit. Don’t be surprised if these windmill owners are the strongest opponents to nuclear.
....dotting the pristine landscape......
Let me follow up on your comments....
....I believe fully in the listing in the original post. I know the energy can’t be stored from the wind, I know the wind is unreliable and does not follow a schedule...on and on....
I am reminded of the air bags.
Back when I was a young, sweet pretty thing, I was a liberal. Now I’m not proud of this but liberals oncit upon a time had a cause and were sincere. Liberals today just don’t know when to quit.
At any rate I remember the debates about the air bags. On and on they went, across the thirteen channels then available. It was always the Repubs...representing the big car companies, who argued against a mandatory requirement for air bags in cars. The Dems, financed by car insurance companies, argued FOR air bags.
Yeah it was all emotion. Women testified in tears about little children killed if only there had been air bags....
Now I read advertisements for cars and damn if there aren’t air bags in some cars for every single passenger! Some cars advertise the availability of personal air bags. Hell, soon we’ll have air bags we can carry around with us!
I also remember all the horrible deaths caused BY air bags, this over the thirteen channels then available and no doubt some folks died because of a design defect in air bags, some unusual thing like a passenger weighing 400 pounds or children too small to handle an air bag impact. It happened, sure, but it was overplayed to the Oprah audiences across the fruited plains over those thirteen channels then available.
So now I’m skeptical.
When someone tells me it can’t be done I don’t believe it right off the cuff.
If money can be made off of it, somebody, somewhere, will figure out how to do it.
Wind is free and I think by giving it a chance it could well be a source of energy, maybe small but combined with many, many small and inovative small forms of energy it could be a factor, and over time, God Bless America, we will figure out how to store that energy.
I mean who ever thought that we would one day be able to put our dinner inside a little box, press a button and boom, with no bother of a stove, we have a hot meal?
A lot of times those pooh-poohing wind, or any other alternative source for that matter, are just folks with a different product to sell.
And now we have a few more than thirteen channels.
Ok - run your own house 24/7 on wind power - you’ll get sick of it pretty quick
I too believe wind can be channeled to a form of storage.
I too believe solar can be channeled for a source power.
It would be foolish not to try and perfect a storage system
for these types of potential power aides. I would like to
see the government apply these systems to their buildings
before they try and sell us the package as a cure to our ills.
All I'm saying is the number of government buildings that could
be using solar assist, or wind assist energy would save how
much money or power that could be transfered somewhere else.
Just random thoughts on a Sunday afternoon..
TPD
The best use I can think of for wind in Kansas would be to merge a modern windmill with the water towers towns use to build water pressure. As long as the wind can pump enough water into the tower to supply pressure, it is not a big factor that the wind is intermittant. The big problem with this idea, however, is that the water towers are usually right in the middle of town, and the noise would be a problem.
In a random thought on a Sunday afternoon I agree.
I vote that all these forms of energy be tested on government buildings, with the exception of schools perhaps, FIRST.
Oh how I recall the rhetoric, how requiring air bags in cars would boost the cost of a car by ten thousand dollars. Back in the late seventies that amount coulda been a million. I, for one, a sweet young thing who desperately needed a car and couldn’t afford to pay a million dollars for one just because an air bag was required.
NO WAY...the auto companies complained. General Motors brought out all kind of experts: engineers who testified to the cost of re-engineering the line, budget experts who provided estimates on the cost, doomsayers who predicted American car companies would go out of business.
I’m perfectly serious.
Now I see all the air bags in cars nowadays and even today a car doesn’t cost a million bucks.
Ever since the air bags I’ve been skeptical.
Well said and well written. I’m currently checking out wind generation on my 300 acre farm. I need more info., if anyone can help-? I’m in PA and can’t get crap for info.
Wind turbines on the Lake Erie shore at Lackawanna, New York
"Construction of world’s most powerful wind turbines in progress in Emden ENERCON is currently installing two E-126/6 MW WECs on the Rysumer Nacken in Emden, Germany. This new ENERCON model is a sophisticated version of the E-112 (6 MW rated power) – the world’s most powerful wind turbine to date. ENERCON GmbH, the project’s builder/owners, will be testing several types of storage systems in combination with the multi-megawatt wind turbines.
"This is the debut of precast concrete towers for ENERCON wind turbines of this dimension. Previously, in-situ concrete (125 m hub height) or steel towers (97 m hub height) were used for the E-112/6 MW. The towers for the E-126/6 MW will be 131 meters tall and made up of 36 concrete segments manufactured at WEC Turmbau Emden GmbH. Once completed, the hub height will reach 135 metres and the overall height an impressive 198 metres."
Yet, for some reason, you don't see the eviro-mental-wacko's protesting how they, and more specifically, the roads and trails these things require, ruin good grassland and farmlands that could be used to grow crops such as switchgrass, sugar beets, or whatever the land is suitable for growing.
Because the electricity they produce cannot be stored and is constantly variable, they will only at best be able to supplement the more reliable methods of generation as the article states.
Although I use 2 windmills to generate all the electricity I use at my remote country home, and can claim it is a very efficient, "clean" (only after all the 'carbon footprints' of the materials used to build one are discounted)way to make power, it is NOT for everyone, and is absolutely unsuitable for uraban areas where houses are close together.
They make noise, and are potentially dangerous should a blade fail, or coil overheat catch fire and start throwing flaming chunks of plastic everywhere. Imagine an 6-10 ft piece of blade (usually made from a couple of 2x6 fir boards laminated together then carved into a blade)crashing through your roof during a storm, or worse, impaling the family dog to the ground when it comes slamming through it's dog house.
Then there's the cost of storing the electricity they do make. 24-1000 amp marine type batteries,the bare minimum requirement to store the power needed to live in reasonable comfort ALMOST (but not quite) comparable to "on the grid" luxury, and only for a short period of time if more power than your windmills can produce is used, running the batteries down. Those batteries don't last forever either. Expect to repace them every 5 years or so, sooner if abused and not cared for properly.
Most people take grid power for granted and don't realize just how spoiled they are. They don't realize how much power they actually use with all kinds of things they leave plugged in, like battery chargers, clock radio's, instant on TV sets, refrigerators, coffee makers and micro waves, computers, glade room scenters, just about everything uses a small amount of power even when they are supposedly "off".
With windpower, you still have to forget about having things like electric heat, electric clothes dryers, unlimited hot water on demand, dish washers, electric stoves, large shop tools- anything that uses gobs of power, like a window mounted air conditioner.
You don't have to give those things up completely, but you do have to plan special "high power days", especially in the winter when it's laundry day. Then you have to crank up the generator to make the gobs of extra power you need for a sustained run of those appliances.
Then there are windless days, broken windmill days, and cold winter nights and days when you are just too tired to chop wood for the woodstove.
The average household needs about 6-10,000 KW available at all times to meet peak demands for their various appliances and hot water heater, and will use close to that amount in a day.
Living on windpower, you need to get used to living with considerably less depending on your setup and the amount of wind blowing. The batteries can handle high demands for short periods of time, but your daily consumption is restricted to just how much your battery banks can provide, and how much power your windmill generates on any given day to recharge them.
For what ever reason even the OBVIOUS escapes people. What if it's NOT a windy day? You cannot STORE the power.
Every kilowatt of wind energy (and solar, for that matter) needs 900 watts of conventional backup. There is no viable storage, and the US grid is not built to handle random energy input. “renewable energy” (until the time we can use tidal/ocean currents) is a fools game, and the producers damn well know it.
I don't think the not being able to store is escaping people like T Boone Pickens at all.
In the first place some storage is possible, batteries etc, but probably not practical in the quantity needed.
However also addressing the backup needed, those plants should already be in place but not used to supplement the wind. However no matter how you look at it when the wind is producing then other fuel is not being used.
Wind could be a real factor in producing energy.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.