I am not questioning whether Obama is a Citizen. Arnold Schwartenegger is a Citizen, but he is not a "Natural Born Citizen". And if Obama was born outside the United States and his father was not a Citizen, then Obama cannot be a "Natural Born Citizen".
Your status at the time of your birth is what determines whether you are a Natural Born Citizen.
If Obama was born outside the United States, then by virtue of the 1961 Supreme Court decision in Montana v. Kennedy, 366 U.S. 308 (1961) Obama would not be eligible to take the office of President.
§ 1409. Children born out of wedlock
(a) The provisions of paragraphs (c), (d), (e), and (g) of section 1401 of this title, and of paragraph (2) of section 1408 of this title, shall apply as of the date of birth to a person born out of wedlock if—
(1) a blood relationship between the person and the father is established by clear and convincing evidence, (2) the father had the nationality of the United States at the time of the person’s birth, (3) the father (unless deceased) has agreed in writing to provide financial support for the person until the person reaches the age of 18 years, and (4) while the person is under the age of 18 years— (A) the person is legitimated under the law of the person’s residence or domicile, (B) the father acknowledges paternity of the person in writing under oath, or (C) the paternity of the person is established by adjudication of a competent court.
(b) Except as otherwise provided in section 405 of this Act, the provisions of section 1401 (g) of this title shall apply to a child born out of wedlock on or after January 13, 1941, and before December 24, 1952, as of the date of birth, if the paternity of such child is established at any time while such child is under the age of twenty-one years by legitimation.
(c) Notwithstanding the provision of subsection (a) of this section, a person born, after December 23, 1952, outside the United States and out of wedlock shall be held to have acquired at birth the nationality status of his mother, if the mother had the nationality of the United States at the time of such person’s birth, and if the mother had previously been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year.
Thank you for all of the helpful information and analysis!!
If Obama pulls a legit Hawaii birth certificate out of his hat - he can be president.
(Actually, the author lost me here - in one instance he says mamaObama was too young at 19, in another he states that Obamassiah IS eligible)
If McCain was not born in a US Navy hospital - he faces a certain constitutional challenge if elected.
Sounds like loads of fun.
Meeting Mama Sarah video
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2008/jun/06/obama.grandmother?gusrc=rss&feed=networkfront
FR is buzzing with more information and speculation concerning Obama’s citizenship status.
There is no chance that any American court will hold that John McCain, as someone born overseas to a parent in military service, is not a natural-born citizen.
There is no evidence that Obama was born anywhere but Hawaii, and no chance that any court will hold that he is not a natural-born citizen also.
I really don’t know why you people foolishly continue to tilt at this windmill. What a ridiculous waste of time.
Barack Hussein OBAMA was born on 4 August 1961 at the Queen's Medical Center in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein OBAMA, Sr. of Nyangoma-Kogelo, Siaya District, Kenya, and Ann DUNHAM of Wichita, Kansas. His parents met while both were attending the East-West Center of the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was enrolled as a foreign student. When Barack Obama was two years old, his parents divorced and his father moved to Connecticut to continue his education before returning to Kenya.
When Obama was six, his mother married Lolo Soetoro, an Indonesian oil manager. In 1967, when Soetoro's student visa was revoked because of political unrest in Indonesia, Dunham and Barack, then in first grade, accompanied him to Jakarta, Indonesia. Obama's half-sister, Maya Soetoro was born after the family moved to Indonesia. Four years later she sent him back to the United States to live with his maternal grandmother.
Is all of this verifiable?
I took a quick look at the U.S. Code for any provisions regarding procedures for establishing qualifications to serve as president and could find nothing. I am also curious to know if the Supreme Court has ever construed Art. II, Sect. 1, fifth paragraph (I doubt it). Also, who would have standing to contest the qualifications of the winner of the electoral college, and who would have the burden of proof in a proceeding?
McCain is eligible to be President. The son of a serving naval officer and his U.S. citizen wife will qualify even if he was born on the moon.
Obama is still a question mark. Is there any documentary evidence where he was born? I can’t imagine why Barry’s mother would have left Hawaii to give birth, but Obama’s behavior is certainly suspicious.
Would not McCain father also meet the standard since he was in the service and on US territory (Navy ships/bases) during overseas deployments?
Natural Citizen status
A commissioned officer of the military or member of the government’s diplomatic corps stationed overseas whose wife gives birth to a child not necessarily or specifically on a U.S. military installation should be considered a natural born citizen. A commissioned officer in the military can be the senior representative of our government in the area especially so if no diplomatic person is present. Thus, how John McCain could not be considered a natural born citizen as called for in the Constitution to be president. Maybe someone can provide me the legal basis that the Supreme Court could rule against him.
All of this is somewhat amusing speculation. But the reality is that no court, including the U.S. Supreme Court, is going to rule against the eligibility of either Obama or McCain without ironclad proof that he is not a citizen.
In McCain’s case, the courts will interpret the somewhat-ambiguous phrase “natural born” in the same way that various legal codes have defined it. In other words, the courts will either throw out any challenges as being frivolous or the challengers not having standing, or if a court actually issues a ruling it will adopt a looser definition of “natural born” than one which is solely limited to births within a state or territory of the United States.
In Obama’s case, he needs to do nothing but ignore the issue. There is a prima facia presumption that he was born where he says he was born — in Hawaii. He undoubtedly has a passport proclaiming that fact. Overturning that presumption would require strong documented proof that he was not born in Hawaii. Contrary testimony from eyewitnesses about events which happened decades ago will not carry much weight, even if those witnesses were willing to repeat their statements in court. Nobody is likely to have standing to pursue a court action and force discovery of documents from Obama.
If hard proof was somehow produced that Obama was born in Kenya, then I agree that the law would rule him ineligible to be President, given the other circumstances. There is a possibility that the law could be changed to make him ex post facto eligible, but that’s highly dicey.
Mere speculation will not accomplish anything. Exposing a jpeg posting of a “birth certificate” as being altered will not accomplish anything. Obama can and will continue to ignore the whole thing. If he is directly asked about it he will not give a direct answer but will attack the politics of the question.
The chance of hard evidence being uncovered which will block an Obama Presidency is extremely small.
So why are we going thru this. DEMAND to see it. Is this of any interest to RUSH & talk radio or are they afraid to touch it as many are. Don’t expect anything from the corrupt “Two-Party Cartel”.
Thank you so much for starting this thread and your info.
Regarding McCain only - this issue has come up before for George Romney 1968:
“It is notable that while [George] Romney was born in Mexico [in 1907], he was still considered to be a viable and legal candidate to run for office [1968 Presidential candidate]. His Mormon grandfather and his three wives fled to Mexico in 1886 but none of them ever relinquished their citizenship. While the Constitution does provide that a president must be a natural born citizen, the first Congress of the United States in 1790 passed legislation stating that “The children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond the sea, or outside the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural-born citizens of the United States.”” from Wikipedia
The key there is the plural “citizenS”. John McCain was also born to TWO citizenS.
I’m not a lawyer, but I have not read anything that ever changed the 1790 law when the child is born abroad anywhere to TWO US citizens - that law still stands.
All of the complications about Obama are because he only has one citizen parent. And I agree with so many - IF Obama was born outside the US, he is not a natural born citizen although he may be a US national.
“I take it as a given that it has been established that the Birth Certificate for Obama published on the several sites of his supporters is fraudulent.”
It is not a given. I take it as a given that Obama was born in Hawaii... Until anybody proves otherwise.
First of all, if it gets far enough, this has to be settled by the Supreme Court. Period.
“McCain is a little more straightforward. He was born (we have not confirmed but understand from sources we view as credible) to two U S Citizen parents in a hospital in Panama not on the U S Military base.”
I dislike McCain, so don’t think I am defending him. Here is the puzzle:
Folks out there insist McCain was born at Coco Solo Naval Base, Canal Zone, located on the Atlantic side of the isthmus.
If he was born on the Atlantic side, he could not have been born at Coco Solo because Coco Solo Hospital wasn’t built until ‘41-‘42. He was born in ‘36.
This would mean that he was born in Colón Hospital, Republic of Panama, and not the Canal Zone. (Colón Hospital is a short distance from Coco Solo.)
But a couple of years ago or less, I read here on FR his father was stationed at Quarry Heights, Canal Zone, located on the Pacific side (not Coco Solo). A couple of hundred yards past the front gate was Gorgas Hospital, our civilian hospital located in the Canal Zone. This means he would have been born at Gorgas Hospital, which was the nearest hospital.
Now this brings up another point:
If he was born at Colón Hospital, Panamanian territory, how could he have become a naval “officer” at that time in his career? Inlisted yes. Officer no.
P.S.
I forgot to mention:
Panamanian law makes McCain a Panamanian citizen if he was born in Panamanian territory (Colón Hospital). And no, there is no place one can renounce ones Panamanian citizenship if born in Panamanian territory. Born in Panamanian territory, always a Panamanian.
Good analysis. You’ve interpreted the law the way I have see it as it applies to Obama.
Have you seen this?
It might be a partial answer to why the newspaper piece (on the other thread).