Well that's nothing!
Brigham Young taught that Adam, as Michael was the Father!
Here is a copy of the whole sermon, just in case anyone thinks it was taken out of context.
Posted on 05/06/2008 7:30:45 AM PDT by sevenbak
Counting down......10.....9.....8......7.....6.....(YOU know what’s coming! ;)
Sad isn’t it? Most of these religious spammers claim they’re conservatives but yet use the liberal play book almost to a T. We see them spew their venom using all the tactics we see here daily, & yet cry foul when liberals & the MSM use the same tactics against them & Christians in general. The Lord had some interesting things to say about hypocrites.
What’s perhaps the biggest shame is that this forum could be such a wonderful place to have sound , reasoned discussions about matters of such great import. I suspect you have had, as I have, great discussions here on religious matters w/ those not of our faith & not in agreement w/ all of our beliefs, but were willing to seek for truth (including about what we really believe) through adult discussions.
Fortunately, these folks are a a small minority if not a very vocal one (another similarity w/ the wacky libs) I’ve stopped engaging them, just too much mud & slime to get through. A shame really. I mean, how many times have these 50 questions been posed here? It’s truly a drive-by mentality.
I think it fits quite well. Paul was being accused and he asked a quesiton that brought up differences between the various sects (Pharisees and Sadducees) over ressurection. You said you read the ressurection section. Do you find the position on the world of spirits and ressurection taken by Iraneus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Jerome (analysing Origen), Ignatiue etc. etc. controversial or not? Do you agree with their ideas or not? Careful how you answer as you may actually be agreeing with Mormon doctrine. Which is the point of the article. That Mormon Doctrine mirrors early post-apostolic Christianity. Do you agree with the early post-apostolic Christians or not?
Interesting that the article you found to suport your position engages in assigning motive to Mormons. This is a form of "making it personal" as stated by FR rules. So in effect to prove that you are not persecuting mormons you engage in poor behavior and assign them motive. Interesting.
But don't worry I'm not taking it "personal" and don't feel "persecuted" by you. I don't take much of anything an anonymous person says on an anonymous forum that seriously. Your argument is now null as I have provided a simple exception.
ROTFL! THIS post made on a thread which is entitled RESTORING THE ANCIENT CHURCH....ROTFL AGAIN! The whole foundation of mormonism is "assigning motives" to every other creed, calling them "abomination" and wrong and claiming the great "apostasy". That's assigning motives, to God!
Cute misrepresentation of the "assigning motive" rule, taking the "personal" and making it universal.
So in effect to prove that you are not persecuting mormons
WOW, the Tibetans being murdered sure would quibble with your definition...a few words on an internet site equals "persecution". As you say, interesting.
Your argument is now null as I have provided a simple exception.
Well, I don't take much of anything an anonymous person says on an anonymous forum that seriously.
Well that's nothing!
Brigham Young taught that Adam, as Michael was the Father!
Here is a copy of the whole sermon, just in case anyone thinks it was taken out of context.
ROTFL! And having worked for two companies that Bain Capital had bought out after I was hired, I can laugh with authority!
So, did you last?
Please forgive my ignorance in this matter, but does Bain Corp . buy companies and then cut employees to make money?
Ummm...no, I'm not a mormon, nor do I play one on tv.
Isn’t it amazing how rare it is for non-LDS posters in any LDS thread every actually address the content of the article? It’s all sneer, smear, shoot the messenger, jump off into some line of attack on some other issue, almost never a thoughtful, reasoned response to what’s actually said.
The New York Times
Sunday, December 29, 1912
Museum Walls Proclaim Fraud of Mormon Prophet
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The New York Times Sacred Books Claimed to Have Been Given Divinely The sacred books of the Mormon Church, which this wholly American cult proclaims to have been given divinely to the first Mormon prophet as a solemn addenda to the known Scriptures, have now been in circulation in Mormondom for about seventy years. On their faith that the texts were really produced through the gift and power of God, hundreds of thousands of devotees have hailed Joseph Smith as the "prophet, seer and revelator" of God, and God's spokesman on earth. His successor, Joseph F. Smith, the present prophet, they hail by the same title, and so strong in their faith that the prophet wields unlimited power in politics, in finance and in religion in at least two Western States. Within three months the only one of these sacred writings in which the test of scholarship could be applied has been submitted to such a test and its authenticity has been destroyed completely. The walls of the Egyptian rooms of the Metropolitan Museum proclaim it to be a fraud. Dr. Albert M. Lythgoe, Curator of the Egyptian department, voices unequivocally the condemnatory evidence of the mute Egyptian drawings and hieroglyphics. Two eminent scholars in England, two scholars in Germany, and four of the most noted Egyptologists in this country join without a dissenting paragraph in the condemnation. The sacred Mormon text was susceptible of accurate and complete analysis from the simple fact that it was taken from a genuine Egyptian original. The translation was a work of the Mormon prophet's curious imagination. Within a few weeks all leading officials of the Mormon Church will receive from the Rt. Rev. F. S. Spalding, Episcopal Bishop of Utah, the results of an extended inquiry among the scholars of the world as to the accuracy of the Prophet Joseph Smith's work on ancient Egyptian hieroglyphics [Web-editor: See Why Egyptologists Reject the Book of Abraham]. Bishop Spalding has collected the opinions of the scholars for distribution among the Mormons themselves. He writes to the Mormons in a kindly mood, and describes the ideas of their prophet and founder as "self-delusions" instead of using a shorter and an uglier word. Much of Bishop Spalding's work was done in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in this city. The ten rooms of the Egyptian collection yielded proof in such abundance that any layman, even in Egyptology, can take the drawings as published in the sacred Mormon record and reproduced on this page of THE TIMES, and find dozens of duplicates of certain figures in them on the walls of the Museum and in its cases of Egyptian objects. ... ... Palpable Mistakes. "Sad copies of very familiar papyrus," he said, "and a sadder, a much sadder, translation. Come upstairs with me and I will show you several pictures that duplicate the figure that the Mormon prophet says is Abraham sitting on the throne of Pharaoh. It is merely Osiris, god of the underworld. And I will show you more duplicates of the figure the Mormons declare to be Pharaoh. It is Isis, wife of Osiris, who is always with him. And when it comes to the Mormon picture of 'God on His Throne, signifying the Grand Key-Words of the Holy Priesthood as revealed to Adam in the Garden of Eden,' why that is a sad joke. "The representation is the most common of all in Egyptian papyri. It is the view of the 'Sun god in his boat.' The Mormon version is right in that this is the picture of a god, but it is the chief god of a polytheistic people instead of God, who was worshipped by monotheistic Abraham, and pictures of him were among the widely distributed pictures in Egypt." An examination of the Mormon explanation of the three pictures from the papyrus, which the Mormons printed in their "Pearl of Great Price," indicated that at times the divine power of the prophet left him, because under some of the figures a legend was written in lieu of a translation, saying that it "ought not to be revealed at the present time," and "will be revealed in the fullness of the Lord." A weirdly concluding line after one part of the translation was this: "The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give it at the present time." Under another section was this: "This ought not to be revealed; if the world can find out these numbers so let it be. Amen." The things that puzzled the inspired Mormon translator were no puzzle at all to Dr. Lythgoe. They were simply snatches of a hymn to the Sun god inserted on every flat disk that was put, for its magical effect as a charm, under the head of the ordinary mummy. The pictures were very badly drawn in the Mormon version, but still were near enough to the originals for their character to be known. A picture that Prophet Joseph Smith declared to stand for "the earth in its four quarters" was found to stand, in fact, for the four genii of the Egyptians—the four sons of Horus, whose pictures occur time and time again—one with the head of a hawk, one with the head of a baboon, one with the head of a jackal, and one with the head of a human. The familiar "hawk of Horus" of the Egyptian hieroglyphics, which was used always to symbolize the soul, became to the Mormon prophet, in one instance, a dove, engaged in presenting the Holy Ghost as a sign to Abraham by God's order, and in another instance, it became an Angel of the Lord, hovering near Abraham as he lay fastened upon an altar. The first of the three pictures from the Mormon work submitted by THE TIMES reporter to Dr. Lythgoe was that of Abraham about to be sacrificed on an altar, with a figure bending over him, knife in hand. Beside the altar, in the Mormon version, stood four figures which Prophet Smith styled the four idolatrous gods of Elkenah, Mahmackrah, Korash, and Pharaoh. Near these was a figure which Prophet Smith declared to represent Abraham in Egypt. Dr. Lythgoe led the way from his office to the main Egyptian department. First he took up the portraits of the four idolatrous gods. It was clear that, although poorly drawn, one had a hawk's head, one a jackal's head, one a baboon's head, and one a human head. And the lower part of all were jars. "Here is a fine representation of the same," said Dr. Lythgoe, leading the way to a highly colored wooden box, covered with gaudy Egyptian drawings. "This box," he explained, "we obtained from a niche in the side of a tomb some four years ago. In the box we found four stone jars. Here they are." And Dr. Lythgoe pointed to the jars standing beside their original containers. They were clearly the originals that the Egyptian artist had pictured upon the Mormon papyrus. The lids contained the pictures of the four genii for handles. "You see," explained Dr. Lythgoe, "they couldn't retain the soft parts of the body when they prepared it for mummification and so they placed the organs in these jars. The jars were part of every well ordered burial. We have quite a number of sets of them here." Wrong Period of Development. Dr. Lythgoe led the way to other sets, varying in size, but only in design when they represented radically different periods of Egyptian development. There were three stages of this development. In the earliest, when Egyptian art consisted of things made from Nile mud, the jars had ordinary flat lids. Afterward they contained the head of a single human as a stock design for the lid, and afterward the heads of the four sons of the mythological god, Horus, appeared on the lids. But Dr. Lythgoe pointed out that every feature of the Mormon drawings indicated that they belonged to the late period of Egyptian life. For one thing, the men in the earliest period wore a short skirt, and in the later period a longer skirt, and were so represented in all the art of each period, respectively. In the Mormon pictures the skirts were long, corresponding to the kind of characters shown upon the covers of the funeral jars, or idolatrous gods to whom Isaac was being sacrificed, according to Prophet Smith. ... Opinions of the Scholars. ... "Soon after this," the prophet wrote in his diary, "I commenced the translation of some of the characters of hieroglyphics and, much to our joy, found that one of the rolls contained the writings of Abraham, another the writings of Joseph of Egypt. Truly, we can say that the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth." "The remainder of the month," the prophet wrote again in 1835, "I was continually engaged in translating an alphabet of the Book of Abraham and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients." The drawings from the Egyptian papyrus printed by the Mormon prophet, together with his translation, were submitted by Bishop Spalding to leading scholars throughout the civilized world. Their comments do not vary in any consequential particular from the comment of Dr. Lythgoe of the Metropolitan Museum. "It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith's impudent fraud," wrote Dr. A. H. Sayce of Oxford University. "The fac simile from the Book of Abraham No. 2 is an ordinary hypocephalus, but the hieroglyphics upon it have been copied so ignorantly that hardly one of them is correct. I need scarcely say that Kolob, &c., are unknown to the Egyptian language. Smith has turned the goddess Isis into a king and Osiris into Abraham." Dr. Flinders Petrie of London University wrote that "they are copies of Egyptian subjects of which I have seen dozens of examples. They are centuries later than Abraham. The attempts to guess a meaning for them in the professed explanations are too absurd to be noticed." Dr. James H. Breasted of the Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago, reviewed the situation at length. "If Joseph Smith could read ancient Egyptian writing," he wrote, "then his ability had no connection with the decipherment of hieroglyphics by European scholars. In publishing these fac similes as part of a unique revelation to Abraham, Joseph Smith was attributing to Abraham not three unique documents of which no other copies exist, but was attributing to Abraham a series of documents which were the common property of a whole nation of people, who employed them in every human burial which they prepared. The little disks for use under the head did not appear in any Egyptian burials until 1,000 years after the time of Abraham. They were unknown in Abraham's day." "A Figaro of nonsense," was the way Dr. Arthur Mace, Assistant Curator of the Metropolitan Museum, who is now in Egypt, summed up the Mormon translations. ... |
So many WHAT??
There is NO blame placed on either side; except in THIS statement:
The RM has made the decision, apparently for the same reason, that they too are getting sick of all the bashing and misrepresentation here, to post these on news.
Doesn;'t even come CLOSE to being what the RM said!
SHAME on you for putting YOUR spin on it!
Let ME try it...
The RM has made the decision, apparently for the same reason, that they too are getting sick of all the whining being done by oppressed Mormons and their constant trying to get threads pulled, to post these on news so that the WORLD can see what kind of folks are prodeuced by The LDS Organization® based in SLC.
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http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! 18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” 20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” |
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http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him! 18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” 20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” |
I didn’t have time to pull up what you did, so thanks. But that brings up another question: If all this was a fraud (seems clear it was) what does that mean for what it supports? Fruit of a rotten tree?
I would suggest that moving LDS scripture postings to news forums will prove less than effective in reducing Mormon bashing.
I am a little confused.
Is questioning now considered “bashing”?
Is quoting from their own verses, letters and texts “bashing”?
Would you be willing to define “bashing”?
Click on my profile page for the guidelines for the Religion Forum. Identifying “bashing” on the News Forum is more like identifying pornography, the moderators know it when they see it.
Something like that, yes. Bain only buys companies that it believes it can resell to another investor, within five years, for a profit. It achieves the profit by increasing the company's productivity & efficiency (and thus asking a higher price for it), or by parting the company out. But AFAIK BAin has never acquired a business with the intention of holding it forever. They always buy with the intention of selling later.
One Bain-acquired company that I worked for was "parted out", and because of my unique position in the company, I was offered (and took) a sizable bonus if I would stay on board until the parting was completed. A second Bain-held company (I think it was Bain - if not, it was a competitor of theirs) could not find a buyer, and Bain was stuck with it for years longer than they planned for. I believe they eventually sold it at a loss (long after I was gone) to get it off their books.
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