Fresh tests on Shroud of Turin

Telegraph ^ | 25 Feb 2008 | Jonathan Petre

[skr]

Where in the Holy Scripture does it mention a connection, other than that of disciple and Lord, between Joseph of Arimathea and Jesus?

[Zeon Cowboy]

Can’t they just detect the Jesus Particles on it? Come on!

[Swordmaker]

It’s a propaganda site attempting to beguile people, as it did you, into believing it’s something else. I said he did his research at Wikipedia because he obviously did: he quotes a long section from one of their articles. No, it doesn’t matter if it’s Jesus or not — whether it’s meant to depict Jesus or an ordinary thief, it’s a comparatively modern artwork.

BS. The site accurately reports the state of current research... unlike your skeptic sites. I find Daniel Porter's various shroud sites to contain accurate and accessible reports on highly technical papers done by practicing scientists. The information is taken from peer-reviewed scientific journals. i would not be surprised to learn that Daniel Porter wrote the article in Wickipedia... and the information on Maillard reactions in the Wickipedia is accurate.... you can find it in other chemistry texts and articles.

If you want to believe McCrone and his optical microscope... and his results that no other qualified scientists have been able to duplicate... fine. I prefer to follow the peer-reviewed science.

[Swordmaker]

A thousand years of silence is damning.

Therefore, using your logic, Tutankhenamen is a fraud because he was forgotten for over 3200 years.

Do you really realize how few documents we have from the first millennia? Books were published in the dozens, or hundreds... not thousands. And many if not most were lost. We only have some of the apocryphal religious texts today because they were preserved in out of the way locales and survived the destructions of various book burnings. Do you know how many of the Aztec Codex survived to today... and were only talking 500 years there. Even Vatican records only go back to around the seventh century with any completeness.

[Swordmaker]

Can you link me to the article about the shroud not having biofilm?

You can start here. The actual scientific papers are available on Barrie Schwortz's site: Shroud.com. Barrie was the official optical light photographer for the Shroud of Turin Research Project in 1978. Although still Jewish, the experience literally changed his life.

[Swordmaker]

It asserts things that aren’t true

Please specify which things asserted that aren't true and provide your proof.

[grey_whiskers]

I stand corrected.

Sword, thanks for your patience with this newcomer.

Cheers!

[grey_whiskers]

Then you are projecting.

McCrone's systematic errors as mentioned in the earlier post are damning enough (lack of controls, no independent replication, contamination of the sample with matrix material which would interfere with the test, nonspecificity of tests, confusion on his own conclusions); coupled with the fact that he was unable to get his work through peer-review, while A&H were; and finally, the fact that A&H used multiple independent tests from different types of measurement, all of which reinforced each other, makes the conclusions inescapable. The stains are human blood.

The only reason you accept McCrone is that it fits your preconceived notions, because you are afraid that any validation of the Shroud could lead to verification of the supernatural.

But as has been repeatedly pointed out, you don't have to go that far if you don't want to.

At that same time, at least you read the article, tho' with biases much in evidence: mental filters firmly on.

How do you feel about anthropogenic global warming?

Cheers!

[grey_whiskers]

If someone wants to hold onto the principle that "anything's possible," no matter how fatuous or improbable, then yes, but in the nitty gritty of history the objections I laid out are pretty unanswerable. The situation with Troy is not analogous.

Again, total mischaracterization.

I was refuting the idea that lack of continuity, or lack of direct physical corroboration, are themselves necessary and sufficient grounds to reject historical narrative: but that failure to reject a narrative outright need not imply blind acceptance -- there is such a thing as "wait and see." And Troy is a case where lack of direct physical evidence, coupled with 'unreliable' features in a narrative, would have led to the rejection of the story. Hence it remains a counterexample to the principle in general.

Cheers!

[ZULU]

If God exists and you believe, you are saved. If He doesn’t and you believe, nothing is lost.

[ZULU]

Yes, it is.

[Swordmaker]

Being a religion skeptic may feed your ego, but if you actually want to know about Glastonbury, here are two books for perusal:
Traditions of Glastonbury, by E. Raymond Capt, and Did Our Lord Visit Britain, by C.C. Dobson

I am very sorry, MHGinTN... No, I'm not... I'm actually quite proud of it...

I demolished E. Raymond Capt on a previous thread on FreeRepublic that, unfortunately, has been deleted because of the antics of one of Capt's followers. I was so incensed by Capt's unscientific, unhistoric, idiotic claims that I spent a lot of time and some long distance phone calls tracking down his bona fides.

I demolished Capt by showing that his own biography on his now-defunct website was a tissue of lies... claiming degrees and honors he had not received from organizations that, in many cases, did not exist.

• Capt claimed to hold valid California Teaching Credentials in Biblical Archaeology and History... neither of which exist (the closest was Social Studies) nor can his name be found on the searchable website of the California Department of Education's list of valid credential holders, past and present.

• He claims to have graduated and received a masters degree from Covenant College in Lake Wales, Florida, (Urban population: 10255, Rural population: 47)... but Lake Wales has NEVER had a Covenant College. In fact, the ONLY college in Lake Wales, Warner Christian College, was founded in 1968, 17 years after Capt claims to have graduated from a college in that city. The only Covenant College in the Country was founded in St. Louis the YEAR AFTER Capt claims to have graduated from it and then moved a year later to Los Angeles. It then moved to Lookout Mountain Georgia seven years later, where it still operates. They never graduated anyone named Capt. As far as they know, there were no previous Covenant Colleges.

• Capt claims to have received his doctorate from the Accademia per L'Avanzamento di Scienza in Rome, Italy, which he claimed had been established in 57 BC... making it the oldest institution on Earth... older even than the Catholic Church. Yet this august academy had absolutely NO internet presence except on one website (now deleted): E. Raymond Capt's biography page. (see side note below)

• He is also a member of the Archaeological Institute of America... a membership without distinction. To be a member one just needs to subscribe to their magazine... sort of like the National Geographic Society.

• Capt also claimed an honorary doctorate degree and honors as well as membership in the The National Archaeological Society of Wales granted to him because of his scholarship proving the Welsh connection to the Holy Land.... but they do not confer degrees... and had no record of an E. Raymond Capt in their membership.

Why was this important? Because Capt claims to have proved that the Aryans are the true Jews and are the true lost tribes of Israel. He says he deciphered 20,000 Cuneiform tablets in the Berlin Museum of Natural History that relate the story of how the Tribes of Israel migrated to northern Europe, Wales and Scotland and are the true inheritors of God's covenant. The Jews who claim to be Jews, according to Capt, are actually Turks who merely wanted to be Jews! This played into the Aryan Nations and other White Supremacists who feature Capt's books on their websites.

The tablets exist... but have been translated long ago and are merely records of commercial trades... not a history of the lost tribes of Israel.

Anything that Capt writes is probably just as inaccurate as his own biography. I would not give it any weight at all.

(Amusing side note: There is now another reference to the Accademia per L'Avanzamento di Scienza... and it points to an Italian page that is a translation of an English page that refers to studying the effects of Yiddish on the English Language... but the original English page is no longer valid. Funny... especially considering Capt strongly anti-Semitic works.)

[ZULU]

We will never know if this is THE Shroud. It doesn’t come with a name tag.

But I believe the Shroud is a genuine relic of a crucified man and the manner of the imprinting of the image is, well, beyond the explanation of science at the moment.

[grey_whiskers]

Re: the captain.

Yuck.

[grey_whiskers]

Capt being short for captain ;-D

[ZULU]

Ya de ya de ya.

Science DOESN’T lie, but testing methods are subject to human error and carbon 14 testing isn’t always precise.
Read about WHERE from the Shroud the samples were originally taken, read about the palynological and anatomical studies on the image. If this is a fraud, its the greatest job in history.

I believe your theories about Roman error burial practises among the Jews are incorrect and conflict with Biblical accounts.

[Just mythoughts]

No. He got permission from the Romans... they didn't care a whit who got the body.

John19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because of fear of the Jews, *besought* Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.

Matthew 27:57 When the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple:

verse 58 He went to *Pilate*, and begged the body of Jesus.

Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered.

59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,

And laid it in his own *NEW* tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

62-66 Tells that Pilate sat a watch over the tomb because that chief priest and Pharisees demanded it.

Mark 15:43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. (This word crave is Strong's Greek 154 can also mean; to ask; beg, call for, crave, desire, require)

44 And Pilate marvelled if He were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether He had been any while dead.

45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph.

46 And he bought fine linen, and took Him down, and wrapped Him in the linen, and laid Him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.

Luke 23:50 And, behold, there as a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a *just*:

51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: (dates back to Samuel) who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. (Joseph was also a member of the Sanhedrin and he took no part in the delivering up and demand for the death of Christ. God does protect His own.)

52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

Now Joseph of Arimathaea would have been required to show cause to be requesting of Pilate the body of Christ. Pilate did exactly what the Heavenly Father required of him to do.

[Just mythoughts]

So what is your take on Christ instructing His disciples to go but to the ‘lost sheep’ of the House of Israel. Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, say, “Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Ezekiel 34 is an interesting condemnation upon the shepherds of Israel. Verse 10 Thus saith the LORD GOD; ‘Behold I am *against* the shepherds; and I will require My flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver My flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them.

11 For’ thus saith the LORD GOD; ‘Behold, I, even I, will both search My sheep, and seek them out.

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, “I am NOT sent but unto the *lost sheep* of the house of Israel.”

Now historically and Biblically through Scripture that House of Israel was sent into captivity to the Assyrian king long before Christ came in flesh. It was their punishment and they were told that they would cease to know who they were but Christ knew who they were and that is to whom He sent His disciples.

Hosea prophet to House of Israel Hosea 1:2 The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea,

“Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms:

for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.”

3 So he went and took Gomer the daughter of Diblaim; which conceived, and bare him a son.

4 And the LORD said unto him, “Call his name Jezreel: (Jezreel is a Homonym, having two meanings: (1) may God scatter (Jer. 31:10 and (2) may God sow (Zech. 10:9)

for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel (IIKings 10:15)

The rest of Hosea is mighty interesting what God wanted even us to know but God also had Amos the prophet to write Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD GOD, that *I* will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thrist for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:

Some would claim that even God Himself and His only Begotten Son were anti-semitic.

[savedbygrace]

2 Corinthians 8:9 - “For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.”

If your word study contradicts the Bible, then which one is in error?

[Rick.Donaldson]

hehe