Posted on 02/24/2008 4:18:12 PM PST by no nau
Over the years, many people have challenged me with a question like:
‘I’ve been trying to witness to my friends. They say they don’t believe the Bible and aren’t interested in the stuff in it. They want real proof that there’s a God who created, and then they’ll listen to my claims about Christianity. What proof can I give them without mentioning the Bible so they’ll start to listen to me?’
Briefly, my response is as follows.
Evidence
Creationists and evolutionists, Christians and non-Christians all have the same evidence—the same facts. Think about it: we all have the same earth, the same fossil layers, the same animals and plants, the same stars—the facts are all the same.
The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions. These are things that are assumed to be true, without being able to prove them. These then become the basis for other conclusions. All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms). This becomes especially relevant when dealing with past events. Past and present
We all exist in the present—and the facts all exist in the present. When one is trying to understand how the evidence came about (Where did the animals come from? How did the fossil layers form? etc.), what we are actually trying to do is to connect the past to the present.
However, if we weren’t there in the past to observe events, how can we know what happened so we can explain the present? It would be great to have a time machine so we could know for sure about past events.
Christians of course claim they do, in a sense, have a ‘time machine’. They have a book called the Bible which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there, and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know.
On the basis of these events (Creation, Fall, Flood, Babel, etc.), we have a set of presuppositions to build a way of thinking which enables us to interpret the evidence of the present.
Evolutionists have certain beliefs about the past/present that they presuppose, e.g. no God (or at least none who performed acts of special creation), so they build a different way of thinking to interpret the evidence of the present.
Thus, when Christians and non-Christians argue about the evidence, in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions.
That’s why the argument often turns into something like:
‘Can’t you see what I’m talking about?’
‘No, I can’t. Don’t you see how wrong you are?’
‘No, I’m not wrong. It’s obvious that I’m right.’
‘No, it’s not obvious.’ And so on.
These two people are arguing about the same evidence, but they are looking at the evidence through different glasses.
It’s not until these two people recognize the argument is really about the presuppositions they have to start with, that they will begin to deal with the foundational reasons for their different beliefs. A person will not interpret the evidence differently until they put on a different set of glasses—which means to change one’s presuppositions.
I’ve found that a Christian who understands these things can actually put on the evolutionist’s glasses (without accepting the presuppositions as true) and understand how they look at evidence. However, for a number of reasons, including spiritual ones, a non-Christian usually can’t put on the Christian’s glasses—unless they recognize the presuppositional nature of the battle and are thus beginning to question their own presuppositions.
It is of course sometimes possible that just by presenting ‘evidence’, you can convince a person that a particular scientific argument for creation makes sense ‘on the facts’. But usually, if that person then hears a different interpretation of the same evidence that seems better than yours, that person will swing away from your argument, thinking they have found ‘stronger facts’.
However, if you had helped the person to understand this issue of presuppositions, then they will be better able to recognize this for what it is—a different interpretation based on differing presuppositions—i.e. starting beliefs.
As a teacher, I found that whenever I taught the students what I thought were the ‘facts’ for creation, then their other teacher would just re-interpret the facts. The students would then come back to me saying, ‘Well sir, you need to try again.’
However, when I learned to teach my students how we interpret facts, and how interpretations are based on our presuppositions, then when the other teacher tried to reinterpret the facts, the students would challenge the teacher’s basic assumptions. Then it wasn’t the students who came back to me, but the other teacher! This teacher was upset with me because the students wouldn’t accept her interpretation of the evidence and challenged the very basis of her thinking.
What was happening was that I had learned to teach the students how to think rather than just what to think. What a difference that made to my class! I have been overjoyed to find, sometimes decades later, some of those students telling me how they became active, solid Christians as a result. Debate terms
If one agrees to a discussion without using the Bible as some people insist, then they have set the terms of the debate. In essence these terms are:
1. ‘Facts’ are neutral. However, there are no such things as ‘brute facts’; all facts are interpreted. Once the Bible is eliminated in the argument, then the Christians’ presuppositions are gone, leaving them unable to effectively give an alternate interpretation of the facts. Their opponents then have the upper hand as they still have their presuppositions — see Naturalism, logic and reality.
2. Truth can/should be determined independent of God. However, the Bible states: ‘The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom’ (Psalm 111:10); ‘The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge’ (Proverbs 1:7). ‘But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned’ (1 Corinthians 2:14).
A Christian cannot divorce the spiritual nature of the battle from the battle itself. A non-Christian is not neutral. The Bible makes this very clear: ‘The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters’ (Matthew 12:30); ‘And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil’ (John 3:19).
Agreeing to such terms of debate also implicitly accepts their proposition that the Bible’s account of the universe’s history is irrelevant to understanding that history! Ultimately, God’s Word convicts
1 Peter 3:15 and other passages make it clear we are to use every argument we can to convince people of the truth, and 2 Cor. 10:4–5 says we are to refute error (like Paul did in his ministry to the Gentiles). Nonetheless, we must never forget Hebrews 4:12: ‘For the word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.’
Also, Isaiah 55:11: ‘So shall My word be, which goes out of My mouth; it shall not return to Me void, but it shall accomplish what I please, and it shall certainly do what I sent it to do.’
Even though our human arguments may be powerful, ultimately it is God’s Word that convicts and opens people to the truth. In all of our arguments, we must not divorce what we are saying from the Word that convicts. Practical application
When someone tells me they want ‘proof’ or ‘evidence’, not the Bible, my response is as follows:
‘You might not believe the Bible but I do. And I believe it gives me the right basis to understand this universe and correctly interpret the facts around me. I’m going to give you some examples of how building my thinking on the Bible explains the world and is not contradicted by science. For instance, the Bible states that God made distinct kinds of animals and plants. Let me show you what happens when I build my thinking on this presupposition. I will illustrate how processes such as natural selection, genetic drift, etc. can be explained and interpreted. You will see how the science of genetics makes sense based upon the Bible.’
One can of course do this with numerous scientific examples, showing how the issue of sin and judgment, for example, is relevant to geology and fossil evidence. And how the Fall of man, with the subsequent Curse on creation, makes sense of the evidence of harmful mutations, violence, and death.
Once I’ve explained some of this in detail, I then continue:
‘Now let me ask you to defend your position concerning these matters. Please show me how your way of thinking, based on your beliefs, makes sense of the same evidence. And I want you to point out where my science and logic are wrong.’
In arguing this way, a Christian is:
1. Using biblical presuppositions to build a way of thinking to interpret the evidence.
2. Showing that the Bible and science go hand in hand.1
3. Challenging the presuppositions of the other person (many are unaware they have these).
4. Forcing the debater to logically defend his position consistent with science and his own presuppositions (many will find that they cannot do this).
5. Honouring the Word of God that convicts the soul.
Remember, it’s no good convincing people to believe in creation, without also leading them to believe and trust in the Creator/Redeemer, Jesus Christ. God honours those who honour His Word. We need to use God-honouring ways of reaching people with the truth of what life is all about. Naturalism, logic and reality
Those arguing against creation may not even be conscious of their most basic presupposition, one which excludes God a priori, namely naturalism/materialism (everything came from matter, there is no supernatural, no prior creative intelligence).2 The following two real-life examples highlight some problems with that assumption:
1. A young man approached me at a seminar and stated, ‘Well, I still believe in the big bang, and that we arrived here by chance random processes. I don’t believe in God.’ I answered him, ‘Well, then obviously your brain, and your thought processes, are also the product of randomness. So you don’t know whether it evolved the right way, or even what right would mean in that context. Young man, you don’t know if you’re making correct statements or even whether you’re asking me the right questions.’
The young man looked at me and blurted out, ‘What was that book you recommended?’ He finally realized that his belief undercut its own foundations —such ‘reasoning’ destroys the very basis for reason.
2. On another occasion, a man came to me after a seminar and said, ‘Actually, I’m an atheist. Because I don’t believe in God, I don’t believe in absolutes, so I recognize that I can’t even be sure of reality.’ I responded, ‘Then how do you know you’re really here making this statement?’ ‘Good point,’ he replied. ‘What point?’ I asked. The man looked at me, smiled, and said, ‘Maybe I should go home.’ I stated, ‘Maybe it won’t be there.’ ‘Good point,’ the man said. ‘What point?’ I replied.
This man certainly got the message. If there is no God, ultimately, philosophically, how can one talk about reality? How can one even rationally believe that there is such a thing as truth, let alone decide what it is?
Without reading every post.
Did anyone explain, through science, how this universe ever got started?
[[The difference is in the way we all interpret the facts. And why do we interpret facts differently? Because we start with different presuppositions.]]
Bzzzt! Wrong! ID confines itself to evidence- Science goes beyond evidence to suggest imaginary scenarios. Baraminology studies lines until they discontinue- Macroevolutionary science leaps into the realm of imagination and ‘fills in’ the imaginary missing links
[[All reasoning is based on presuppositions (also called axioms).]]
Not true- Forensic science follows the evidence in an unbiased manner- not knowing where the evidence will lead- the strict science STOPS when the evidence discontinues- the agendists within science then jump in to assume this and that imaginary scenario.
[[However, if we weren’t there in the past to observe events, how can we know what happened so we can explain the present?]]
Many foresnic investigations can reveal a great deal about past events- for instance, science can determine to a fair degree just by analyzing bones composition, what the diet of the species consisted of by comparing available food’s chemical makeup and the residue present in bones. Strict scientific forensics can determine quite a bit- it’s only when the Macroevolutionsits come aboard that we see an abandonment of strict science and see fantastic hypothetical situations introduced which have absolutely zero scientific evidence to support- infact, we see scenarios suggested that are biologically impossible.
[[Christians of course claim they do, in a sense, have a ‘time machine’. They have a book called the Bible which claims to be the Word of God who has always been there, and has revealed to us the major events of the past about which we need to know.
On the basis of these events (Creation, Fall, Flood, Babel, etc.), we have a set of presuppositions to build a way of thinking which enables us to interpret the evidence of the present]]
More than that, we have sceicne that backs up what the bible says, and we have actual eyewitness accounts. Further, we have personal relationships with God who proves Himself trustworthy in our lives, thus further givign credence to what was said in His word. God often backs up His claims in our lives in personal ways that outsiders simply can’t imagine- however, their skeptical cynicism in no way refutes what Christians know to be true.
[[Thus, when Christians and non-Christians argue about the evidence, in reality they are arguing about their interpretations based on their presuppositions.]]
Somem ight- but more educated Christians argue ACTUAL FACTS while the Macroevolutionist argues fantastic imaginary hypothesis which has no scientific evidence to support.
[[I’ve found that a Christian who understands these things can actually put on the evolutionist’s glasses (without accepting the presuppositions as true) and understand how they look at evidence.]]
Oh, we understand it alright- but it doesn’t take glasses to come to the obvious conclusion- Evolutionists are heavily invested in a Godless Macroevolutionary scenario that is devoid of evidence, and as such, they will never admit defeat no matter the amount of scientific evidence AGAINST their hypothesis. It doesn’t matter to them that their hypothesis is biologically impossible, mathematically impossible, and statistically impossible- to htem time+mutation is impervious to impossibilities.
[[As a teacher, I found that whenever I taught the students what I thought were the ‘facts’ for creation, then their other teacher would just re-interpret the facts. The students would then come back to me saying, ‘Well sir, you need to try again.’]]
No you don’t- You simply need to stick your guns! The scientific facts speak for themselves- anythign beyond the facts- like Macroevolution delves in, relies on nothign but fanciful imaginations and a system that miraculously must have overcome incredible impossibiltiies if it were true. This is hte bottom line No Nau- Science supports Discontinuity, Science refutes Macroevolution! Period! You just stick to hte facts and you will be above the fray and will be an example to anyone who wonders what TRUE OBJECTIVE SCIENCE REALLY shows!
[[What was happening was that I had learned to teach the students how to think rather than just what to think.]]
That is imperative- For too long our kids have been spoon fed BAD science! They have been spoon fed an agenda- NOT TRUE science! Again- just present the facts about science, and teach our kids to observe objectively without breaking out into some fantastic biologically impossible logic in order to support a failed hypothesis. Again- the science and evidence is on your side- let them speak for themselves- they tell the story everytime consistently!
For someone so hung up on intelligence, you sure look stupid when you state that schools are *finally* going to start teaching evolution. They have been for decades to the complete exclusion of any other option.
What rock have you been living under? Time to join the 21st century.
LOL!! So true.
Mr. Ham is talking about the Biblical doctrine that the wages of sin is death. That death entered the world upon man's fall into sin. If the fossil record shows billions of years of death and disease before man then how can death be related to sin. If the fossil record shows millions of dead things, in rock layers, layed down by water, all over the earth then it affirms the Great flood of Noah. How one interprets the fossils and geology is determined by one's presuppositions.
Evolution is just the misinterpretation of the observed variation within species.
Jesus spoke to the masses in parables, however, privately he explained them to the disciples and we have benefit of both. Jesus also said I have foretold you all things, but He did NOT say that everybody would believe.
It is also Written that it is NOT given for all to understand, and the Heavenly Father will do the judging in regard to 'ignorant' or the 'willingly ignorant'.
[[Dr. Kurt Wise: “..Given what we currently think we understand about the world, the majority of the scientific evidence favors an old earth and universe, not a young one. I would therefore say that anyone who claims that the earth is young for scientific evidence alone is scientifically ignorant. “]]
I just got an email from myself that said “Given that a majority of old earth ‘evidence’ relies HEAVILY on assumptions about UNKNOWNS, and relies on methods that aren’t accurate beyond 7000 or so years, those hwo suggest that young earth believers are ignorant are themselves guilty of a priori agendist propoganda and are guilty of self deluded opinion of htemselves.
Kurt can beleive whatever he likes- but his arrogance and pompous attitude show a VERY clear a priori snobbery that is rife within the scientific comunity and which gives TRUE science a VERY bad name!!! [snip]...
It either God or magic. Some people seem to prefer magic over God.
[[Some people seem to prefer magic over God]]
That’s too bad- magic won’t help them when it’s too late to turn to the truth.
” if He told us, we wouldn’t understand.”
No kidding.
We barely have scratched the surface on the Earth.
We don’t yet even understand the mechanism of gravity.
The weather is a complete mystery to us.
we claim to be able to explain the Universe.
And every day our explanations must change to match newly discovered facts.
We may never, in our lifetime, understand all that GOD has wrought.
Maybe not even in the lifetime of human civilization on the Earth.
The data is the same.
But very few have access to the same data.
For instance, you have in your head certain ‘knowledge’ of the fossil and geologics record.
Me too.
I would almost guarantee that neither of us has the ‘same’ content.
It would be nice if everyone was given the same ‘data’.
But they aren’t.
Until God gives you the wisdom to understand that God is also responsible for science.
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