Posted on 02/23/2008 10:56:29 AM PST by Bob J
Ever since Super Tuesday a super debate has been raging on FR concerning John McCain. I was never a McCain supporter, in fact I penned the post Super Tuesday post "Official FR Drinking Thread" so we could together drown our common disappointments into oblivion.
FReepers seem to be moving into three distinct groups. The first are those that have always supported McCain, a lot or partially. There are those that don't like McCain but are willing to support him because they believe they will get some of what they want or to defeat what the see as the more critical danger, Obama or Clinton. The there's the third group, those that viscerally dislike McCain and vow never to vote for him for any reason.
The actions and motivation for support from the first two groups seem obvious...they would rather see McCain in the White House than a dem. But for the life of me I cannot understand some of the actions of the third.
Allow me to explain.
I understand you dislike McCain and the reasons why. He is far too liberal on many issues, he has stabbed conservatives in the back several times and he is too cozy with the dems. These are all defensible reasons to not vote for him or to vote third party and you have every right to vote as you see fit and for whatever reasons you hold. What I don't understand is why some here are making such concerted efforts to dissuade others from voting for or supporting him.
As flawed as McCain is there is no way a logical case can be made that we would be better off under Obama or Hillary (O&H). Even on most issues where McCain is closer to the left than to us, O&H are much farther to the left than he is and would do much more damage than McCain. On the issues where he is not, the WOT, taxes, abortion, etc., the differences are stark and this does not even take into count extended issues like judicial appointments.
So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain? If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss.
It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well.
What kind of message does that send to other stinking RINOs? What kind of messege does it send to them if we elect him?
He can't be trusted. If this country goes to hell, let it be hung around the democRATs necks, NOT the Republicans.
If it's Hillary, I know how I'm voting, If it's Obama, I'll probably end up voting for the POS RINO.
I guess that makes a 4th group.
“First the handwriting is on the wall for anyone willing to see it. McCain isn’t going to win. He’s winning primaries with around half the votes Hillary is losing with.”
Baloney. McCain is presently polling ahead of both O&H so you’re statement doesn’t hold water. Of course, anything can happen between now and Nov but to make that statement now is silly.
“Second, I see no reason to vote for a losing candidate AND give the GOP a go ahead for a further leftward slide.”
If the GOP slides left we buckle down and work harder to bring it back more to the right. Capitulation only puts you on the outside looking in. Much less chance of changing anything.
Q: How many of your civil rights and liberties are you willing to sacrifice per election just to get an (R) elected?
On the day after the election, when McAmnesty has suffered the biggest electoral loss in Repube party history, there will be pointing. Followed by laughing.
Likely even some “I told you so’s.”
One thing I don’t get: it’s OK with you for us to vote third party, but it’s not OK for us to try to convince others to do so? If we believe something that’s OK to believe, then why can’t we advocate those beliefs to others? That seems inconsistent.
I belong to a 4th group. I viscerally dislike McCain and thinking he is lying, stinking, steaming sack of waste matter. But I see no other choice but to vote for him even though Hussein Obama will beat him like a drum in the General election.
Well, it’s probably a moot point anyway, since McLame is almost certain to lose. The Obamanation express is on track to derail all things right and good, and it doesn’t look like anything can stop it.
That being said, I guess I’ll vote for McLame, in the forlorn hope that even a RINO can defeat a true socialist son of a muzzie.
But I’m not overly hopeful.
100% of the push back against insane mccain is because his supporters continually try to force people to vote for him. If no one posts the BS of vote for McCain no will will post back.
Pushing for a McCain and a GOP loss? Not at all.
Not willing to vote for McCain, or any of the pretenders for POTUS is simply a way of saying ... "You want a socialist / nanny state government? ... I won't be a part of it."
Call it a Conservative thing.
“Which way would you rather die, a bullet to the head or an arrow in the stomach? Either way, your gonna die. Take your pick.”
Hyperbole is often used as a substitute for a sound argument. How about we dispense with the jingoisms and discuss this situation rationally?
McCain Feingold, McCain Leiberman, McCain Kennedy. Gang of 14 Torture Amendment. Baker Commission. etc etc etc etc
Considering that a good chunk of the people on this board are completely pissed at GW Bush for being too Liberal, why would you expect them to support a guy who spent the last 8 years agreeing more with Ted Kennedy then with GW Bush?
Based on his record, what do you assume McCain will fight his good friends, the Senate Democrats, to accomplish for you?
Considering the GOP has not backed a candidate pledging to raise taxes in over 50 years, asking us to back a GOP candidate eager to raise the Fed Gas Tax $.50 a gallon to fight the myth of global warming is no easy sell.
You claim “well McCain will be better then the other side”.
Really? On what base do we make that assumption? Is letting the GOP evolve into a Democrat Lite party of tax and spend “moderates” under McCain’s leadership going to be less damaging to the long term health of the country then a 4 year term of a neophyte radical whose agenda is going to die a miserable, ugly legislative death in Congress?
He might not win, but that is no reason not to vote for him. Obama is objectively worse for the country, we have duties to the country, ergo we have to vote against Obama. The rest isn't reasoning, it is avoiding reality as unpleasant. Not a conservative trait.
If he shouldn't have been the candidate, the time to decide that was the primaries. All the candidates conservatives now say they can stand failed to get even 10% of the vote. Everyone with a real shot at it was a squish, just different regional varieties of squish. So is the president, who isn't popular enough to win again today because the country has move left, perceiving our policies of the last 7 years as failures.
That may be as unfair as you like, it is the political reality. There isn't a conservative majority in this country. Only centrist squish republicans are competitive at the national level. Heck, even at the state level, only in the most conservative states can a republican running for statewide office (as opposed to a safe uniform house district) afford to be a real conservative.
McCain may not be the best squish for the job, just the squish that won. But the real objection from the right is to the reality that only squishes need apply. They are right to dislike this, but wrong to think disliking it changes anything. It doesn't. The republican party is either going to be welcoming to the squishes, or it will be as dead as the whigs. Being a great American institution of practical people, it is going to be welcoming to squishes.
Deal with it, already.
What BS! We want to see our party RESTORED! It took 4 years of Jimmy Carter to give us Reagan!
If we wanted to see the party "utterly destroyed", we'd be drinking your kool-aid and voting for that POS, ass kissing RINO.
“If you elect McCain as President, he will define conservatism.”
Baloney, he will define his presidency. Conservatives define conservatism.
BTTT
“This is a vanity stupid.”
I think you may have gotten some words mixed up.
McCain was never my first choice but to vote for Obama or not to vote at all is to become no better than liberals who are either domestic enemies or useful idiots. To think that there is no difference between Obama and McCain or that we can control or survive an Obama Regime is insanity. Obama will abandon the Middle East to Al-Queda and Iran. The Islamofascists who want to convert or kill all of us will have access to all that oil money and be able to purchase weapons of mass destruction. Will a dozen of our major cities destroyed by chemical, biological or nuclear weapons be enough to satisfy you ideological purists? Thanks a lot.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.