Replies

“You say Peter was not a minister to the Gentiles, but to the Jews — do you discount the fact that there were Jews in Rome and indeed throughout the Roman Empire?”

Correct, we know that there were Jews in Rome, as well as throughout the Empire. But Peter being a minister to them with a gospel specifically to them would preclude him being the head of a predominantly Gentile church. A great difference is made between the ministry to the circumcision and the ministry to the uncircumcision when the agreement of Galatians chapter 2 was made.

If either Peter or Paul were to be the bishop of Rome, it would have been, therefore, Paul, by the very description of their distinct ministries. But neither one was ever a “bishop of Rome.”

The New Testament that the WCC (RCC) uses, or rather the text-type, came about through Alexandria, Egypt (Origen), and then through Rome when Constantine ordered 50 copies from Alexandria, and Eusebius complied with the order. It was certainly corrupted by Origen and others in Alexandria, and by the Latin scholars of the WCC (RCC) like Jerome, and others. It is (in the Greek NT) the Minority Text (also called the Western Text), representing a minority of the MSS.

Of course, you would claim that YOUR church was the only proper channel for giving the world the Bible. It is just as you would claim that YOUR priests are the only ones authorized to baptize or offer the Lord’s Supper (which you all describe by other unnecessary and unbiblical terms). Just as YOUR church is, in your minds, the only channel of salvation.

We claim nothing of the sort for any of our churches. We don’t believe that salvation is in or through ours or ANY earthly organized church, or though any sacrament of any church, but through Jesus Christ alone. We don’t believe any person must be affiliated with us in any way to be saved or have the blessings of God including eternal life. We don’t believe our pastors/bishops are priests. We are not the ones who believe that a sinner can absolve the sins of another sinner. We don’t believe our baptism is exclusively valid and effectual. In fact, we don’t believe there is any salvation in water to begin with.

You like to throw around the word “cult,” and we understand it, because according to your doctrine, anything outside of the authority of your system qualifies, in your minds, as coldish and heretical. And if this were 500 AD to 1600 AD in Europe, the adherents to your system would have me before an inquisition, and you would be applauding my drowning or burning at a stake.

So, which is the real “cult?”

There were Christians, ones who were never affiliated with anything that became the WCC (RCC), who were copying and using the Scriptures all over Asia Minor and Eastern Europe, and translating them into other European languages as early as 160 AD, and the MSS extant of those that never went through Alexandria or Rome (they principally went through Antioch of Syria and Byzantium and then north and west), are the Majority Text, that is, they represent the majority of the Greek NT MSS, whole and fragmented copies.

I know, I know, you are convinced that there weren’t any Christians or Christian churches in existence apart from the WCC (RCC) until the Reformers (1450 to 1600). You would like us all to believe that there were NO non-Catholic churches before the Reformation. Or if there were any, they were all necessarily heretical, because they wouldn’t bend or bow to papal authority.

Sorry, but the world did NOT get the Bible through YOUR WCC (RCC), which you mean to be THE CHURCH. The WCC (RCC) is not THE CHURCH. It is one of many organized bodies of local churches, just held in one grip under your papa (pope) in the Vatican.

God the Holy Spirit, Himself, has Superintended the preservation of His Words through history to the present, and he has used believers in the process, guiding them and the work they did. But God didn’t have to use the WCC (RCC), and He didn’t. He used individual Christians. Many of them never darkened the door of a WCC (RCC) church, but many of them that God used were tortured and/or murdered with the blessings of the “Bishop of Rome.”

And many a historical document has been altered for use to prop up your system. In the past 24 hours, I’ve done a little reading up on Tertullian myself, for example. If he were alive today, and conducting a ministry, the WCC (RCC) wouldn’t claim him, for sure.

If either Peter or Paul were to be the bishop of Rome, it would have been, therefore, Paul, by the very description of their distinct ministries. But neither one was ever a “bishop of Rome.”

Paul was not the bishop of Rome. Peter was.

YOUR church

My Church happens to be the Church of Christ through His apostles, continued through 2000 years. Which cult do you belong to? A Cult that uses the doctrine of the Church (namely the Bible which was handed down through The Church) and then says the Bible underwent serious tampering through the years???

which is the real "cult"?

well, namely your little interpretation of the Bible fits the definition pretty well considering that is not orthodox and the groups are dependent on personalities -- your "pastors" -- namely, the groups splitting from each other based on personalities or who eats eggs sunny side up, in short silly, non-Biblical, childish cults.

There were Christians, ones who were never affiliated with anything that became the WCC (RCC), who were copying and using the Scriptures all over Asia Minor and Eastern Europe, and translating them into other European languages as early as 160 AD, and the MSS extant of those that never went through Alexandria or Rome (they principally went through Antioch of Syria and Byzantium and then north and west), are the Majority Text, that is, they represent the majority of the Greek NT MSS, whole and fragmented copies

You know how silly that is? The Bible codex was finalised in orthodox Constantinople, the Bible which you disparage comes to you through catholic-orthodox sources. These other "groups" you refer to were Arians, a little group that said Christ wasn't God. Now if you subscribe to that non-Trinitarian belief, then good, call yourself Arian, not Christian.

Your silly statement I know, I know, you are convinced that there weren’t any Christians or Christian churches in existence apart from the WCC (RCC) until the Reformers (1450 to 1600). You would like us all to believe that there were NO non-Catholic churches before the Reformation. Or if there were any, they were all necessarily heretical, because they wouldn’t bend or bow to papal authority shows that you didn't read any of my posts -- have you ever heard of the Ethiopian Church or the Coptic or the Assyrian? Have you ever heard of Eastern Orthodox CHurches? Have you ever heard of EAstern CAtholic Churches like the Syro-Malabar? They were not part of the Western Church reporting to the Pope, but all are Apostolic and were / are in Communion with us. We are all part of the One, Holy, Apostolic Church. Other groupings like the Jehovah's witnesses, your personal group etc. aren't part of Christ' Apostolic Church for the same reason -- you mal-interpret the Bible, you light on ONE passage and close your eyes to everything else, you misinterpret and lead to errors and with the thought "every man, no matter how ill-informed is a pastor", you lead others down wrong paths. That is the problem, just like it was with Arius, just like it was with Mohammed, you glorify an individual sinful man's interpretation instead of God and God's Church.

You say And many a historical document has been altered for use to prop up your system, sheesh, so everything that doesn't agree with your personal interpretation of scripture was, according to you, altered? Paranoid, aren't you? On the one hand, you say Tertullian was false, then you find out that his teachings weren't completely Kosher and you then agree with him? The brainwashing has been well done by your "pastors", leading you away from Christ's Church.

God the Holy Spirit, Himself, has Superintended the preservation of His Words through history to the present, and he has used believers in the process, guiding them and the work they did. Yup == and they were done through The Church. No johnny come lately could come around 600 years later and realise that Christ actually wasn't crucified but laughed all the way to heaven, no johnny come lately could come around 1800 years later and discover the book of Moroni to have the same level as The Bible, and no Johnny come lately could come around 2000 years later and say, oh, the Bible underwent some serious tampering through the years in favor of The Church.

Let's recap -- post 58 I said There was no "Roman" Catholic term until the Protesters used that to distinguish themselves from the Western Christian Church in the 1500s. Pre-Protestants, there was only 1 Church. and that is true -- the Church was defined as orthodoxy and it consisted of All Apostolic Churchs. Even the groups that split away like the Assyrian Church were Apostolic in Origin and in thought. Post the Protestants, there were many groups (not the first groups who maintained Apostolic thoughts, but the splinter groups and the sub-sub-sub-splinter groups) that had individual human interpretations and were not Apostolic in origin and hence were NOT The Church.

You then say that no, there were other Churches besides the orthodox and who taught things like Christ being just a prophet etc. -- those groupings like Islam, Arianism etc. existed/exist, yes, but they were NOT the Church.

Then, in post 227, you use slurs

Then, in post 235, you question the meaning of the term Apostolic -- well that means Churchs that are of Christ, founded by one of His Apostles. And yes, the organised Churches are the Churches of the Apostles of Our Lord

Then, you make the silly statement that Peter was never in Rome, and, when confronted with proof from various sources that he WAS in Rome, you say "well, it wasn't mentioned in the Bible, so it didn't happen" -- does the Bible mention that Jude Thaddeus would have gone to Iran? Does it mention that Thomas went to Southern india? Does it mention that the moon revolves around the earth and the earth revolves around the sun? No, but there are proofs that they did. The Bible speaks the truth, but it's not an encyclopedia listing every historical event.

After you see this proof, then you say, "oh no, that was revisionist and distorted".

AN UNBROKEN HISTORY

Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that His Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from Him. His Church will survive until his return.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots or completely new religions like the Jehovah's witnesses or Mormons)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

If we wish to locate the Church founded by Jesus, we need to locate the one that has the four chief marks or qualities of his Church. The Church we seek must be one, holy, catholic, and apostolic.

The Church Is One (Rom. 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, 12:13, CCC 813–822)

Jesus established only one Church, not a collection of differing churches (Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, and so on). The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:23–32). Jesus can have but one spouse, and his spouse is the Catholic Church.

His Church also teaches just one set of doctrines, which must be the same as those taught by the apostles (Jude 3). This is the unity of belief to which Scripture calls us (Phil. 1:27, 2:2).

Although some Catholics dissent from officially-taught doctrines, the Church’s official teachers—the pope and the bishops united with him—have never changed any doctrine. Over the centuries, as doctrines are examined more fully, the Church comes to understand them more deeply (John 16:12–13), but it never understands them to mean the opposite of what they once meant

The Church Is Holy (Eph. 5:25–27, Rev. 19:7–8, CCC 823–829)

By his grace Jesus makes the Church holy, just as he is holy. This doesn’t mean that each member is always holy. Jesus said there would be both good and bad members in the Church (John 6:70), and not all the members would go to heaven (Matt. 7:21–23).

But the Church itself is holy because it is the source of holiness and is the guardian of the special means of grace Jesus established, the sacraments (cf. Eph. 5:26).

The Church Is Catholic (Matt. 28:19–20, Rev. 5:9–10, CCC 830–856)

Jesus’ Church is called catholic ("universal" in Greek) because it is his gift to all people. He told his apostles to go throughout the world and make disciples of "all nations" (Matt. 28:19–20).

The Church Jesus established was known by its most common title, "the Catholic Church," at least as early as the year 107, when Ignatius of Antioch used that title to describe the one Church Jesus founded. The title apparently was old in Ignatius’s time, which means it probably went all the way back to the time of the apostles.

The Church Is Apostolic (Eph. 2:19–20, CCC 857–865)

The Church Jesus founded is apostolic because he appointed the apostles to be the first leaders of the Church, and their successors were to be its future leaders. The apostles were the first bishops, and, since the first century, there has been an unbroken line of Catholic bishops faithfully handing on what the apostles taught the first Christians in Scripture and oral Tradition (2 Tim. 2:2).

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Man’s ingenuity cannot account for this. The Church has remained one, holy, catholic, and apostolic—not through man’s effort, but because God preserves the Church he established (Matt. 16:18, 28:20).

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Many groupings like your own consists of a multitude of churches, each pastor following his own interpretation of his denomination's confession of faith. I can't see God as the author of confusion (1 Cor. 14:33)