Mormons Aren't Christians (Columnist also calls Luther a heretic)

Dallas Morning News ^ | 12/16/07 | Rod Dreher

[Mobile Vulgus]

Mormons aren't Christians ...

... and other thoughts on religion and politics sure to get your blood boiling

Herewith, my views on religion and the politics of the present moment, with something to offend just about everyone:

1. Mormons aren't Christians. I don't mean that as a criticism, only as a descriptive phrase. When Mormons claim Jesus Christ as their savior, there's no reason to doubt their sincerity and good will, or even to deny that they are in some way followers of Christ. Yet Mormonism rejects foundational doctrines of traditional Christian orthodoxy, such that it is impossible to reconcile with normative Christianity.

2. Anyway, the Latter-day Saints church teaches that all other Christian churches are apostate. A heretic is someone who rejects one or more doctrines of religion, but an apostate is someone who has rejected the religion entirely. How is it, exactly, that you can get mad when people you regard as apostates consider you to be ... apostate? How does that work?

3. Theologically, this is a big deal. But politically, so what? Mormons vote like Southern Baptists and come down on the same side of most issues of public morality like conservative Christians do. If you're a socially conservative lawmaker, wouldn't you rather have a Mormon in your legislative foxhole than a Kennedy-style cafeteria Catholic or progressive mainline Protestant? I'm no Romney fan, but is there really no meaningful political difference between Good-Mormon Mitt and Bad-Catholic Rudy, to say nothing of Liberal-Protestant Hillary?

4. There are plenty of good reasons for conservative Christians not to vote for Mr. Romney, but his religious beliefs are not among them. Do Christians want to be in the position of rejecting a candidate whose political views and moral values they agree with, solely because they don't like his religion?

[Edit35]

I would ease up on Purgatory. You guys actually believe you can baptize people after they are dead. It sounds virtually the same.

My point, which sorry to see that you missed, is NOT that this denomination is absolute truth, or that denomination is absolutely correct.

I'm not judging Pergutory one way or another.

It is that these anti-Mormon bomb throwers feel so emboldened to slam Mitt Romney over the LDS church's foibles when ALL denominations have some sort of tradition or teaching NOT FOUND IN THE BIBLE.

It's just the sheer egotism of some believers (not you necessarily) who feel is is THEY who are absolute truth. THat is what really irks me , especially in light of this great country, the United States of America, which was founded on religious freedom and tolerance.

And I'm a church-going, Bible believing fairly conservative spiritual person .... who was raised on Billy Graham and church revivals.

[Edit35]

I’m no feminazi, but I’m not voting for a grown man who believes women are unequal before god.

Oh puhleeze.

Can you name me one, just one, legislative decision Mitt Romney made in which he based his logic on "women are unequal before God."

Besides, all major Christianity denominations have proclaimed that the MAN is the head of the household, and that WOMEN must submit to his authority.

No --- I'm not saying that I, or any modern politician, practices that particular Bible scripture to the max or even believes it to be true.

I'm just saying that ALL Christian denominations have proclaimed that particular Bible passage to be true --- Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians... ALL ---

[greyfoxx39]

Apparently, I must make it simple for you, we can Via Artificial insemination create a virgin birth today.

A man who fathers a child through artificial insemination is just as much the father of that Child as I am of mine which were fathered the "normal" way.

Thought you'd find this interesting, narses.

[donna]

Previously discussed on this thread.

[Frumanchu]

Will the Mormon haters just get over themselves already.

I cannot speak for others here, but I do not consider myself a "Mormon hater." I do not hate Mormons. I do hate Mormonism because I believe it to be a false gospel preaching a false Christ and leading people away from the Truth.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: “God is completely sovereign over all his creations and that includes this universe, what are you smoking?”

You Said: That’s deceptive language friend.

Actually, it's what we believe.

You Said: Who created the Mormon God - and is the Mormon God sovereign over that entity or being?

Who created God is irrelevant.

I was born, I grew up, I became and adult, ever since I reached the age of majority, I have been sovereign. My parents will never be punished for what I do, nor can they punish me, or control my assets. What you envision we believe is just not what we believe, God is Sovereign over all he has and will create, if and until he gives that creation it's agency, and allows it to be Sovereign, which is what the Righteous have been promised, we will have all that God hath.

I know you just don't understand, so stop telling me I believe what I don't just because you don't understand what I do believe. If you really want to know, Ask us, we'd love to tell you -- Without being told we are liars.

You Said: Is the Mormon God sovereign over everything that has ever, or will ever exist - i.e. the entire and complete set of everything, excluding himself??

God is Sovereign over all his creations, over himself, and over all the universe (Which he created), indeed over more than the universe, for it is all his creation.

You seem to be trying to exclude God from this by alluding to if there are other Gods who are also sovereign over their creations that that somehow diminishes God, it does not. We will never interact with anything that is not God's we cannot see, reach or comprehend all of God's creations all that we will ever interact with is his. until we are given the opportunity to start creating our own stuff, but that is so far in the future, it is incomprehensible to us now.

An analogy...

My Father raised me and taught me right from wrong. I live in his house, I obey his rules, he owns everything. When I am old enough, and Competent enough, my father may allow me to leave the house and set up a house of my own. I will fill that house with my own things. When my father comes to visit, he will not take possession of my stuff for it is mine. My father will not command my children or my wife, he will not punish my children without my permission, for I am sovereign and have been since I left home.

This world is full of types and shadows, this the traditional family as set up by God in the Garden is one such type and shadow. I know you disagree with my philosophy, and my theology. but saying that we are not christians is lying. Trying to come up with some "Gotcha" that makes us non Christians is the Devil's own work for it drives people away from Christ. Buddhists, Taoist and Hindu's have divisions in their religions as well, however, I have never seen them argue over who is a "True Buddhist" for they are focused on what they believe and their progress along their chosen path. Do they proselyte? Yes, but they do not have the bitterly fought arguments over who is the "True and correct" whatever. Some Christians cold learn a lot from them. 'nuff said.

[the OlLine Rebel]

“Liberal-Protestant Hillary”

Make that “GODLESS Hillary”.

[bigeasy_70118]

What’s the difference between a Mormonism and Scientology?

About 150 years.

[the OlLine Rebel]

“6. Which isn’t to say that doctrine doesn’t matter at all. Take Islam, for instance. It would be dangerously naive to assume, as American civil religion does, that all religions are pretty much the same. It’s true that most religions share core ethical teachings, but orthodox Islam also teaches unambiguously that there is to be no separation of religion and state and that non-Muslims are to live subservient under law to Muslims. To the extent that a Muslim wishes to preside over our pluralist liberal democracy, he will have had to break radically from his faith’s fundamentals.”

BRAVO!

As for the Luther comment - does seem foolish, indeed.

[the OlLine Rebel]

I agree with you.

Unitarians need to be called out more. Not that they are many, but they are definitely not Christian and not really of God.

[Diego1618]

You appear not to be following too closely here.

You are the one not following as I have always said Joseph and Mary's children would be half brothers and sisters....not full siblings.

I realize that destroys your false theology. So be it!

[Diego1618]

other children of Mary...... A non existent group, see my above.

You would give anything to be able to show scripture backing this up.....wouldn't you? Your position is as phony as most of everything else you folks believe.

[Galatians 1:19] Who do you think Paul is speaking of here.....Captain Kangaroo?

[DelphiUser]

I Said: “I ask the lurkers If you want to know about Chevy trucks do you go to a Ford salesmen?”

You Said: With all due respect, If you want to know about Chevy trucks do you go to a used car salesman or a mechanic? You seem to indicate that you are completely objective about these issues. But you know that is not true. You have a bias, I have a bias. I think we can settle that now.

I agree that we both have Biases, so do mechanics... I suggested, doing a bit of research, then taking it to God. Tell me, do you have a problem with me suggesting that people ask God if the Book of Mormon is true?

You Said: The problem with the link you posted is that official LDS doctrine is changing

One sign of a living church is it is receiving current revelation, many have a problem with that, just like the pharisees in Jesus's time did. Pray about it.

You Said: just like it changed in 1978 when blacks were allowed in the priesthood

Ah, when you start to look like a Bigot, charge your opponent with the same thing.

It was prophesied that the time would come when they would be allowed to have the priesthood, and that was fulfilled. Shall we talk Baptists and the KKK? Catholics and segregated Churches? Get a grip, this is a non starter for anyone who wants to think for two seconds.

You Said: or on the topics of polygamy, or caffine, or whether Adam was God Almighty.

When losing a debate, change the subject. The topic was "Are Mormons Christian" the answer was Yes.

The rest of your "topics" are smoke screen for a failure to make your case.

But since you asked, Polygamy, biblical, not for everyone, not now.

Caffeine, drug, used to be considered benign, and now would be banned if not already part of mainstream food stuffs.

Adam was never God almighty, The teaching was that God was Adam on the world where he was human. This was always misunderstood because Brigham worded it very badly. Not taught by the church currently because it has been so misrepresented by those who don't understand it.

The topic was "Are Mormons Christian" the answer was Yes.

You Said: What was Mormon doctrine yesterday might not be Mormon doctrine tomorrow.

LOL! Again with the Pharisaical argument that we can't have new revelation, only the commands handed down long ago can be true, only Moses spoke to God, you can't fulfill the law, don't fulfill any prophecies, stop the wheels of time, I want to get off! ROTFLOL!

The topic was "Are Mormons Christian" the answer was Yes.

You Said: And Mormons are know for not being entirely forthcoming about all of their beliefs. As proof, I offer you this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8

Sadly, you are right, while the Mormon church has always told the truth, individual members have "taken matters into their own hands", I would dare say every church can be shown false if the sins of parishioners is to be laid at the church's door.

Jesus was also impugned for eating with sinners and publicans, there are many in the "Mormon" Church who have need of repentance, that is why they come, we are a hospital for sinners, not a sanctuary for saints.

Specifically, I ask you, have you told everything about your church in a discussion about it even things that would "hurt" your debate? This guy in the video (I have seen it before) is trying to teach Debate with religion to some novices, I would venture that every Christian church, has such classes for some people, and some of what he says is valid. You don't have to answer every question, no matter how inappropriate, prying, or sacred. Answering a questions with what you think should have been asked is also a debate technique, editing video to make someone else look bad is also a technique.

PetroniusMaximus I ask you flat out, have you ever lied? then we can't trust you either. Why not ask God? He never lies. Gee, you notice how it keeps coming back to that?>

The topic was "Are Mormons Christian" the answer was Yes.

You Said: I have found no statement by a Mormon using the word “sex”.

Thank you, I will expect a full apology and cessation of this disturbing direction from you. Wait, you go on to interpret us to say what we did not say, pray continue...

You Said: But when McConkie says, “Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” what are we to infer?

That God is Jesus' Father in every sense of the word, and that it was all done without Sex because then he says Mary was still a virgin afterwords. Stop interpreting for us, we are saying what we mean.

You Said: He is saying that God sired Jesus “in the same way” that you, DelphiUser, will or have sired children. Hard to get around that.

Not really, I have a family member who has to have his wife artificially inseminated in order to have kids. they are his children in every sense of the word. you are seeking a distinction without a difference and I am saying there is no difference and you are focusing on an imagined distinction.

You Said: Especially with his insistence on the “literal” nature of the passage.

Do you know why this was even said? There were several "theories" going around that would have made Joseph the father, or had Mary having sex, We refute such statements God is the Father of Jesus Christ in every way, however, Sex was not how Jesus was conceived, for Mary was still a virgin, and that precludes Sex.

Saying you don't understand what we are teaching is one thing, but saying that we don't understand what we believe is another. Mormons believe in the Virgin Birth of Jesus Christ, saying that we believe anything else is a lie. We never said God had sex with Mary, that was Non-Mormons.

I have a thought for you... How do you think Jesus will feel about this preoccupation some have with his mother being unchaste before her marriage? I personally would be very careful as a Christian when having this conversation not to assert too strongly arguments for Mary being a loose woman, for I know she was not, and her son just might not like the aspersions being cast upon her virtue by those who think she was, sleeping around. Just a thought.

Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born. That is Mormon Doctrine.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: ...I believe I am reading the Bible as it was meant to be read...

U Said: And that is how?

With prayer, and the spirit of God...

U Said: Using all of the OTHER lds scriptures to explain it?

Elsie, have you ever used any commentary, or read anything besides the bible to give you insight?

You do know the meaning of the word hypocrite is, right?

[DelphiUser]

U Said: It's already been put to the test....

And it passes every time.

[DelphiUser]

I Said: I choose to believe what God testifies to...

U Said: Circular logic.

Well if that's the only kind you understand...

U Said: You would NOT accept ANYONE who would come with some kind of data that calls your organization wrong. You KNOW it's right, therefore, anything that purports to 'come from GOD' will be thrown out.

Please stop telling me what I know or in any way reading my mind, IT's not allowed here.

I am of Course open to a revelation from God, for he speaks to me all the time, sadly, my life is often not focused on him enough and I miss his messages.

U Said: An 'angel from heaven' could NOT convince you, even with bones in his hand.

I give, why would he be carrying bones?

U Said: You've already prayed to see if the Anti's might, even in some small way, be correct in the 'attacks' and you've gotten an answer saying, "They are false." and there is NOTHING that will convince you otherwise.

I wonder if you are saying that because you have already decided we are wrong without praying...

You seem to forget that God told me the church is true. I don't need to ask every day if it is still true. However, since I feel the spirit and am guided by it daily, I would want to know what took him so long to correct me and why he misled me in the first place. you see since my testimony about the Book of Mormon included a testimony that Jesus is the Christ and Died for me, the Bible says:
first John 4:1-3

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

And I known the Spirit that Testified to me of the Book of Mormon was of God, therefore, it is true. And if the Book of Mormon is true, as testified to me by God why would I listen to anyone who says otherwise? Where are those who try to refute God's testimony coming from? Am I open to further light and knowledge from God? Sure, am I asking God daily if you Elsie are his messenger, no. You are not that profound, sorry, but that is how I see it.

[Frumanchu]

You do know the meaning of the word hypocrite is, right?

You've certainly provided Elsie with a brilliant example of it in this thread.

[DelphiUser]

We agree on LOTS of stuff ;^)

Glad to hear that, so, who do you like in the primaries?

You might not have heard (it was typed on the computer) I am pulling for Fred Thompson (Fred08.com)

[DelphiUser]

Correct. It went off course by merging with the Roman Empire.

Then I can assume the Greek Orthodox are worshiping correctly and the heresies of the Romans have NOT influenced them

Therefore, to worship differently than they do would not be correct, therefore according to history, the LDS organization is wrong.

Nice sophistry, except for one little problem. No where in the Bible have men "Reformed" God's church. He Restores truth, knowledge and authority or it stays lost.

Was the Greek Orthodox restored by a prophet called of God? or was the Greek Orthodox Church split off by a man or men who were "Reforming" the Roman Catholic church?

If the Roman Catholic church ever lost the authority to act in God's name, the Church would have to be restored from God. That is one of the strengths of the Mormon position. It's either us or them, the rest of the protestants don't have a prayer (sorry, couldn't resist the bad pun)

Hey, If you can't take the Pun-isment, don't read the posts!

[DelphiUser]

There is no way you can convince me from the Scriptures that after the proper amount of time after Jesus' birth, that Joseph and Mary did NOT get it on.

Personally, while I agree with your conclusion, a little more discretion would be appreciated, how about "Consummate their marriage"