Pa. shop owner backs English-only policy (cheesesteak shop sign was never meant to be offensive)

AP on Yahoo ^ | 12/14/07 | Bob Lenz - ap

[donnab]

LOL you outsider you.
There are alot of good cheesesteak places in and around Philly.
That would make a whole other thread.
I live out in the burbs so I don’t go to Philly too often, at least if I can help it. Heres a great site to check out some other great places to get cheesesteaks:
http://hollyeats.com/Philadelphia.htm

[Windcatcher]

In Joe’s defense, it’s hard to move simply because you can get a cheesesteak anywhere. Where I live in Delco, there have to be at least four places within two miles where I can get one. He would face intense competition in an area that’s a lot more spread out. Maybe he could overcome it with the notoriety, but the point is that there’s not exactly a vacuum here. He has done a terrific job of building his business and his name over the years and the city is threatening him with irreparable harm. I hope he sues the bejeesus out of them.

[Intolerant in NJ]

"The signs give a feeling of being unwelcome and being excluded," Charles said...ah, ain't that a shame - Charles must be a very special person to have gone through life long enough to become a professor and apparently never before felt unwelcome and excluded somewhere or other....

Local TV channels were running online polls on this today - Channel 6 reported that their results were overwhelmingly in favor of keeping the sign, apparently so overwhelmingly so that they didn't give the actual figures - Channel 3's "Should Mr.Vento have to get rid of his sign" was polling 93% no, 7% yes as of a few minutes ago......

[new cruelty]

woo hoo! very nice. thanks for the info. I’ll make it a point to visit as many as i can over the next few months.

when i moved here 5 years ago, i packed on about 5 pounds just from sampling all the great Italian food.

[N3WBI3]

How could this discourage someone? if they cant speak english chances are they cant read it..

[theanonymouslurker]

Bump for Geno’s. F Pat’s and Camille Charles.

[peggybac]

“In the old days Joey could call somebody named Scarpa or Scarpelli and resolve this in a gentlemanly manner.”

Actually, I’m surprised this whole thing hasn’t been taken care of in a “gentlemanly manner” already.

[seanrobins]

As a Philadelphia who has been closely following general political stupidity in Philadelphia for years . . . this is about as stupid as they get.

Just one thing illustrates this monumental stupidity: The claim is that Joey Vento’s sign is intended to, or will, stop people from ordering cheesesteaks, because it says:

This is America, when ordering Please speak english. . .

The problem? The only people who might be affected by the sign are those who can read it. But its written in English. So the only people who will be detered from ordering are those who can read the sign, in English. but they won’t be deterred because if anyone is deterred by the sign, it will be those who can’t read English. But since those who can’t read English can’t read the sign either, those who can’t read English won’t be deterred either.

I could go round and round like this all day.....

The Human Relations Commission and the “complaintant” are such morons. . .

[seanrobins]

Sure, he appeals through the administrative process, and then he can bring it to the state courts to appeal, and then to the federal courts challenging the constitutionality of the regulation and/or of its application to him and his sign.

Joey Vento has plenty of money to pursue appeals, and will certainly do so...all the way!

[upchuck]

I’m very glad Mr. Vento plans to attack this.

[Eagles6]

Yeah, a guy called up Quinn’s show the other day and suggested this. Make sure that it’s in a very obscure language.

[nathanbedford]

Sharp observation. The professorette was presumably sworn in because she was held to be an "expert" whose opinion is by virtue of education or experience somehow special. Her education or experience presumably convinced the tribunal that her opinion, as opposed to yours or mine, should be heard.

When heard, the professorette stooped to explain to us:

"The signs give a feeling of being unwelcome and being excluded," Charles said.

There is an even worse instance in this account: the lawyer "testified" as follows:

Paul M. Hummer, an attorney for the commission, testified earlier that the sign is not about political speech, but about "intimidation," and that it suggested business from certain individuals was not wanted.

We are not told what qualifies a lawyer to testify. Perhaps the reporter was so ignorant that he did not recognize the distinction between argument and testimony or perhaps the lawyer was actually sworn in and his opinion was received. I shouldn't be surprised if it were the latter.

At least the article gives us some idea of the law:

After extensive publicity in 2006, the commission began investigating whether Vento violated a city ordinance that prohibits discrimination in employment, public accommodation and housing on the basis of race, ethnicity or sexual orientation.

Well, let's settle what we can because it is simple. Obviously this is a place of public accommodation. But does the sign have anything to do with "race ethnicity or sexual orientation?" On its face to does not. The ability to speak English as opposed to some other language, to my knowledge, does not come as a result of skin pigmentation, tribal affiliation, or hormone arrangement. The ability to speak the English language is a learned skill having nothing to do with race, ethnicity or sexual orientation.

Let's turn it around and see if by discriminating against people who do not possess this particular language skill, one masks a discrimination against protected classes because the discrimination is actually against "race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation." Again, obviously not. Virtually all American Indians, for example, speak English. Whole swaths of black Africa today speak English. Many whites in Canada do not, while most whites in America do. Clearly, the ability to speak English is no reliable predictor of race. Perhaps a more refined question would be, does the ability to speak English, or more accurately the absence of the ability to speak English, mask a discrimination in the Philadelphia area? If I wanted to discriminate against ethnic Latin Americans, for example, could I effectively do so in the Philadelphia area by discriminating against people who do not speak English? This is an unmeasurable question. On its face it is not a question of speaking English well but only well enough to order from a printed menu. As one who has made his way in many foreign countries, where I do not speak the language, I have always been able to negotiate the menus, order a beer in almost any language, and later find the toilet. One look at me and you will be convinced that I have not starved as a result of my linguistic inadequacies.

The ability to speak English might be said to be a slightly more accurate predictor of ethnicity but it certainly cannot be held to be reliable. Finally, to try to discriminate against homosexuals on the basis of the language they speak is a hopeless undertaking and assertions to the contrary can be simply dismissed out of hand.

Therefore, the charge should be dismissed out of hand. But the commission did not do so, to the contrary, it found probable cause to continue the investigation:

for discrimination, alleging that the policy at the shop discourages customers of certain backgrounds from eating there.

The article does not favor us with explaining what "backgrounds" are discouraged from eating at the establishment. The article does tell us that the prohibition is against "discrimination," yet the commission found probable cause because customers of certain backgrounds are "discouraged" from eating there. "Discrimination" on its face would require some sort of affirmative act by the restauranteur but the commission here has reversed the focus and put it onto the customer whose subjective reaction-whose "discouragement" - is now determinative of whether someone else has committed a violation of law.

To camouflage the subjectivity of all this, the commission trots in its witnesses, a professorette and the lawyer. The professorette, sworn in as an expert no less, opined that,

"The signs give a feeling of being unwelcome and being excluded," (emphasis supplied)

We all know that any old sociology professorette is an expert on feelings.

The final judgment of the commission no doubt will be that Mr. Vento who started "his steak shop in 1966 with just $6 and developing it into a multimillion-dollar business," should be stripped of his property and sentenced to two years in a reeducation camp.

[LZ_Bayonet]

"Suggestions include having an attorney who doesn’t speak English to argue Joey’s case. Would the commission enjoy conducting business that way?"

EXCELLENT idea! How about one (or two) who speak a variety of foreign languages and can switch constantly.

[Mannaggia l'America]

If I were Joey Vento I would close down my shop in Philly and move my business to Montgomery County.

Unfortunately, I fear he would encounter the same thing in Montco.... I live in Chester County and we have seen lots of Philly liberals moving in here and in Montco - you can see it in local election results.

These libs want out of the rat hole they created in Philly, so they move to the 'burbs and start electing people with the same mindset that ruined Philly. Insanity.

[bert]

I find the existence of the looter commision offensive

[NittanyLion]

Actually, I’m surprised this whole thing hasn’t been taken care of in a “gentlemanly manner” already.

You mean by Vento bribing city officials? I suspect that's what they had in mind; when he refused to be extorted they took it to the next level.

[seanrobins]

Missed opportunity: But, wouldn’t it have been tremendous if Vento’s attorney came in and spoke to the commission entirely in Spanish....or pick some other more essoteric language no one would be likely to know, such as Swahili, or who cares.

Does anyone doubt that the commission would have insisted that the lawyer representing Vento speak to the commission in English.

[Islander7]

Camille Zubinsky Charles, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Sociology
Faculty Associate Director, Center for Africana Studies, University of Pennsylvania

Offices

Faculty Associate Director,
Center for Africana Studies
University of Pennsylvania
3401 Walnut Street, Suite 331A
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19104-6228
Telephone: 215.898.4965
Fax: 215.573.2052

Maybe we should say hello to the professor.

[FreeperinRATcage]

Actually, I haven’t felt the need to buy the book. I made up my mind on the subject long ago, and don’t really need the reinforcement :)

[FreeperinRATcage]

Remember Chinks, and the controversy there?