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Evolution Debate Led to Ouster, Official Says
Associated Press ^ | November 30, 2007 | The Associated Press

Posted on 12/01/2007 12:39:07 PM PST by Alter Kaker

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To: Dutchboy88

All one gets from dropping things here on Earth, wherever one is standing, is the basic observation that things fall, plus some data on air resistances, etc.

The theory of gravity (analysis way above my pay grade) talks about the why and how.

Ditto evolution. The fact of different species populations over time is easily observed in the geologic record. The further facts of chemical relationships is observable in the lab. In both cases predictions can be made.

Are there reproducible experiments on novas?

Unfortunately, grade school “science” teaching talks about reproducible experiments and does demostrations, calling them experiments (in a real experiment you don’t know what the right anser is). In certain areas of science reproducible experiments are, indeed, necessary, but not all. Predictions are the more generally significant feature, but it takes until college science classes, usually the ones for science majors, before that message gets out.


221 posted on 12/04/2007 10:17:10 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: Dutchboy88

Evolution is an experimental science. If you don’t know this, you’ve been misinformed. The evolution of adaptations can be reliably observed. It won’t be long before this is routinely demonstrated in high school advanced biology labs.

Speciation can also be demonstrated over a period of a few years. Perhaps not in slow breeding animals, but then no one expects speciation in just a few generations.

Common descent is inferential in the same sense that criminal forensics is inferential. If you don’t accept this kind of reasoning, you better be prepared to empty all the prisons.


222 posted on 12/04/2007 10:20:57 AM PST by js1138
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To: Virginia-American
"Are you seriously claiming that corals (in the phylum Cnidaria, along with sea anemones, hydras, jellyfish, etc) are ancestral to fish and people (phylum Chordata, along with birds, frogs, lizards, etc)?! Please provide some "evolutionist" references for this startling phylogeny. If there aren't any, then your claim that some detail of the immune system falsifies common descent is bogus." - Virginia-American

You have to go through "Fishes" to get to humans from anything ancient. Thus, my point that Fish have never been shown to have the immune functionality of coral and humans looms large.


223 posted on 12/04/2007 10:59:05 AM PST by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: LibertarianSchmoe
"It bespeaks the dishonesty of creationists that they must resort to lying in attempts to cover up the link between unscientific ID and creationism." - LibertarianSchmoe

Perhaps the problem that you are having is logical. Maybe you think that since all biblical creationists believe in ID at some level, that all supporters of ID must likewise be biblical creationists.

Of course, such logical fallacies are easily smashed by simply looking at scientists who design new life forms in the lab (e.g. transgenic species), for one example.

Clearly such scientists don't have to be biblical creationists, yet there they are, intelligently designing new life.

224 posted on 12/04/2007 11:03:28 AM PST by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: js1138; All
Science teaches us how God created the world. The Bible teaches us why- C.S.Lewis
225 posted on 12/04/2007 11:20:10 AM PST by mnehring
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To: xzins; Lurking Libertarian
Believing that God somehow guided some unnamed process is not naturalistic evolution. In fact, it isn’t really evolution at all if we say that some smart guy jumps in the pit and changes things every X period of time or so.

There is a fourth option (to young-earth Creationism, traditional Evolution, & ID) it is known as Theistic Evolution. It is not a "God in the gaps" theory. Kind of complex to go into depth here, but simply put that evolution is the vehicle God created to activate creation, he didn't need to step in from time to time and change things, before time, all events were set in motion.

226 posted on 12/04/2007 11:23:29 AM PST by mnehring
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To: Southack

You had to look long and hard for asimplified tree of life to support your statement. If you had bothered to look for the adult version (linked from the same source as your diagram) you would get this:

http://tolweb.org/tree/phylogeny.html


227 posted on 12/04/2007 11:31:20 AM PST by js1138
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To: mnehrling
There is a fourth option (to young-earth Creationism, traditional Evolution, & ID) it is known as Theistic Evolution. It is not a "God in the gaps" theory. Kind of complex to go into depth here, but simply put that evolution is the vehicle God created to activate creation, he didn't need to step in from time to time and change things, before time, all events were set in motion.

That is, I understand, the teaching of the Catholic Church, and of many Protestant denominations. It was what I learned as a child in an Orthodox Jewish religious school, and is what most Jewish authorites teach today.

228 posted on 12/04/2007 11:37:38 AM PST by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: js1138
JS
Have you seen the one that was constructed from DNA studies that backward studied small modifications in DNA and how it resulted in evolution from mutation to mutation?

I'll see if I can find it if you don't have it.

I found this one that shows the complexity of birds and the mutation trace for them.

The other images I've found are far to large to post. This is the smallest I could find but it helps demonstrate the complexity.


229 posted on 12/04/2007 11:39:18 AM PST by mnehring
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To: Lurking Libertarian
Exactly, I am surprised it isn’t given much relevance in the debate. It is either young earthers, evolution only, or God in the Gaps ID.. yet, theistic evolution is what is most accepted by believing scientists and has far older roots than traditional evolution or young-earth creationism (which really started in the 18th century)
230 posted on 12/04/2007 11:41:47 AM PST by mnehring
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Per 229-
Here is a large image. I am providing the link only, copy and paste this in a new browser window.

http://www.chm.bris.ac.uk/motm/oec/images/tree.jpg

This represents just one fragment of the larger one posted earlier.


231 posted on 12/04/2007 11:44:00 AM PST by mnehring
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To: mnehrling

I’ve seen that one. There are multiple problems with southhack’s code skipping, the most obvious of which is he is claiming that modern fish are ancestors to humans (not to mention modern coral).

He does not understand the concept of cousins. Perhaps where he lives your parents are also likely to be your cousins, but that is not the general case.


232 posted on 12/04/2007 12:27:18 PM PST by js1138
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To: js1138
Perhaps where he lives your parents are also likely to be your cousins, but that is not the general case

LOL...

233 posted on 12/04/2007 12:28:14 PM PST by mnehring
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To: mnehrling

That circular one in #229 is beautiful. (Love the “you are here.”) Where did you find it?


234 posted on 12/04/2007 12:28:29 PM PST by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

University of Texas website.


235 posted on 12/04/2007 12:29:08 PM PST by mnehring
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To: Alter Kaker
The Darwinian ToE crowd always links the ID people to their wackiest fringe proponents, which I think is an unfair tactic and smacks of intellectual desperation.

Imagine if the reverse was done and the ID people always linked the Darwinian ToE people with their wackiest fringes--Gobineau, Sanger, and the rest of the social Darwinist/eugenics crowd. That would be a cheap shot, wouldn't it....

Turn about is fair play, you know.
236 posted on 12/04/2007 12:32:45 PM PST by Antoninus (Republicans who support Rudy owe Bill Clinton an apology.)
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To: Antoninus
Imagine if the reverse was done and the ID people always linked the Darwinian ToE people with their wackiest fringes--Gobineau, Sanger, and the rest of the social Darwinist/eugenics crowd. That would be a cheap shot, wouldn't it....

No, that would be a step up.

We are most often linked to Hitler and the Nazis. Or told we are headed straight to hell.

237 posted on 12/04/2007 12:34:58 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: Southack

Your diagram in #223 has an obvious flaw which, if you think about it, leads to the problem with your argument. It’s trying to chart how different forms diverged, but it’s also drawn in such a way as to imply the passage of time. In doing so, it locates fish only in the past—the flaw is that there’s no place in it for modern fish. If you add a fish up next to the bird to represent today’s fish, you need to also add another line extending from the original fish to today’s fish. And a lot of evolution can happen along that line—including the loss of some aspects of the immune system.


238 posted on 12/04/2007 12:43:54 PM PST by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical

It is the children’s version of the tree of life, drawn in 1968. This is another example of a creationist playing at witchcraft. Somehow reality can be altered by words and pictures.

In order to post his image, southhack had to ignore a link to a real diagram clearly labeled.


239 posted on 12/04/2007 1:16:50 PM PST by js1138
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To: Ha Ha Thats Very Logical; Southack

No matter how far back you trace vertbrates and our ancestors, you’ll never find a cnidarian.


240 posted on 12/04/2007 1:25:25 PM PST by Virginia-American (Don't bring a comic book to an encyclopedia fight.)
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