Law change drives the high price of machine guns

Atlanta Journal Constitution ^ | 10/20/07 | Steve Visser

[sig226]

Randy Powell has a .50-caliber machine gun he would like to sell you — but he can't afford to.

The monster, sitting in a cage in back of his gun store and shooting range in Lawrenceville, can cut down a tree — and could easily fetch $30,000 in a perfectly legal sale. But for Powell, the sale would be the equivalent of hawking a Picasso or vintage wine.

The gun increases in value exponentially each year.

"I bought that gun for $10,000 about 10 years ago," he said. "I could make a lot of money if I sold it but it's an investment more than anything. There is no wholesale market. If I want another one, I may have to pay more than that."

If Clifford Harris Jr., the budding hip-hop mogul known as T.I., had lived a more law-abiding life he could have used his fortune to legally buy the .50-caliber, the silencers, the M60, Uzis or other machine guns that Powell has in his shop. "It is a real adventure to shoot it," said Robert Thornton, a machine-gun expert, of the .50-caliber. "You can hear the bullets strike the target 1,000, 1,500, 2,000 yards away."

Instead Harris is facing federal charges that include illegally possessing three machine guns and two silencers and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon. He pleaded not guilty to the weapons charges in court on Friday.

Most people, while they have the right, don't have the ability to buy a machine gun like Powell's. For instance, a Heckler &Koch MP5K machine pistol would fetch $15,000 on the civilian market, Powell said.

[ozzymandus]

Most full-auto doctrine is centered around short bursts. Holding the trigger down is movie stuff, unless you’re just spraying in the general direction of an enemy you can’t see.

[ExSoldier]

Why do you wish to “try sniping the National Guard”?

I didn't say I did. I was responding to another freeper's post in the way one might gather full auto weapons in a time of crisis. As for the reason...well if it were an exact replication of April 19th 1775 as seemed to be the case when the national guard came for the citizen's assault rifles....after Katrina. I see no difference in the army of King George, at that time the lawful government in the colonies of the new world....and the national guard of a state acting either on the behest of the Governor or at the direction of the President having been federalized when acting to deliberately deprive US citizens of their civil liberties! What would you do under such circumstances? Depending on where you live, you'd best answer that question in your heart and mind right now.

Thank God such a scenario has been envisaged by the legislatures of many states who have now passed laws against such unconstitutional actions. But many more states have not. Has your state? Will it matter if an Executive Order is signed under Presidential fiat? Is it a coincidence that the guardsmen who seized guns after Katrina were imported from states with the harshest gun control laws? Illinois? California? Hmmmmmm Think it might happen again? MAYBE.

The point is that while the national guard of the past was a synonym for "paper tiger" that can't be said currently. Most all guardsmen are combat veterans of multiple deployments to either or both Iraq and Afghanistan. Is resistance still worth the effort? Ask Alexander Hamilton or Thomas Jefferson who faced the most formidable infantry of it's time. I'd rather die on my feet fighting a tyrant than live on my knees as a slave. How 'bout you?

[ExSoldier]

HKs are pretty easy, from what I hear. Same with uzi.

My take on this is that any time you start fussing with sears and the like by filing or physically altering the part you risk a runaway gun. Uncontrollable full auto. On a machine gun using disintegrating links the only way to stop such an accident is to twist the belt to force a jam. With a mag fed weapon you'd have to drop the mag or more likely wait the 2 seconds needed to run out of ammo. Unless you're simply dropping in a full auto sear with no mods required I say leave it all alone.

[mamelukesabre]

HKs are modular. The whole trigger group comes off and is replaceable with a select fire version. This is what I was told. They used to have the trigger groups for sale in gun magazines such as shotgun news to anyone, but it is a felony to put one on your rifle unless your rifle was previously registered as a machine gun. I would expect these parts are no longer available without an FFL or class 3. You also used to be able to buy parts to build suppressors too, but if you bought a complete suppressor, you were breaking the law unless you had the proper license. In fact, just possessing a suppressor would get you a felony. But there’s no law against possessing suppressor parts(that I know of). It took the system a long time to catch up to the laws. I imagine they are all caught up by now.

[ExSoldier]

But there’s no law against possessing suppressor parts

Got potato? How about a 2 Liter soda jug? So many field expedient solutions to an age old problem. For me Class IIIis fun plain & simple but never a tactical necessity. For up close and personal give me a Benelli M4 and a collapsible stock.

[mamelukesabre]

Nice but pricey. Mossberg with pistol grip works for me. I like pumps. I’m not too familiar with the new fangled autos. But I can tell you that I can easily shoot an old fashioned pump faster than anyone can shoot an older auto. I’ve got an old monkey wards model 35 with a 5 round tube. That is an ugly old gun and probably not even worth $50. But it is a very very fast shooting gun with an extremely comfortable stock and grip. When I go blue roc shooting with people that don’t know me, it’s scares them half to death the first time they hear me rapid fire it. The only downside to it is sometimes when you’re reloading, all the shells come out the bottom. The gizmo that holds the shells in isn’t the best design. It’s also a little heavy, but that doesn’t bother me. It’s not as heavy as an old browning auto 5. I’ve got one of those too. Those things shoot really slow.

[ExSoldier]

I have an original Benelli M121 that was the forerunner of the M1 Super 90. I purchased that at a gunshow about 15 years ago for around $400. It's got ghost ring sights and it's pro ported with a nice sling. I can put eight rounds down range with virtually no muzzle rise before the first hull hits the ground. I've seen some real artists work with a pump, but the Benelli is hard to beat. OTOH, maybe I'm just lazy. Regardless, it works for me.

[Repeal The 17th]

“...physically altering the part you risk a runaway gun.”

---

I, uh, heard a story one time, about this feller
that studied and studied and studied
the mechanism of his semi-auto MAK-90
and came to a good understanding of how it all worked
and determined that if he inserted a little shim
in just the right place it would cause it to fire
in full auto instead of semi-auto.
So he did that and then he took the gun down to the
river for a little test firing.
He loaded up a 30 round magazine, and
just pulled the trigger one time and then
he had to hold on until the gun emptied itself.
He says he could have thrown the gun down and
walked away and it wouldn’t have mattered.
Once that first round fired,
it was not going to stop until it ran out of ammo.
That incident scared the heck out of him
and I have it on good authority that
he never tried such a thing ever again.

[publiusF27]

That is surprisingly accurate considering the source.

Prices may come down unexpectedly. If the Supreme Court takes the Heller (Parker) case, and if they rule the 2nd amendment protects an individual right, the guns meant to be protected most are militia weapons. Machine guns.

Would a “reasonable restriction” on machine guns stand “strict scrutiny” by the courts? Might the NFA tax go the way of poll taxes, for the same constitutional reasons?

We could see cheap, new machine guns in American gun stores once again.

[ExSoldier]

LOL Uh-HUH. I once saw a M1911A1 45 that had been shot so much and ill cared for that on a qualification range it went full auto for just seven rounds and the poor Battalion XO holding it wound up pointing it in the vertical from the recoil.

[mamelukesabre]

It’s only a matter of time. If they havn’t done it yet, they soon will have autos that will beat the faster guys with their old pumpguns. I’m not up on all the new stuff, but I’m guessing it’s been done already. But there will always be the odd freak that can shoot the pumpgun amazingly fast, just like there are still a couple three guys or so walking this world that can shoot a revolver faster than a top quality semi auto pistol. But it’s not a skill worth working hard at, in my opinion.

I once saw a guy that did professional demonstrations with his SAA 45. He was a quick draw artist. He loaded his gun with birdshot, so that’s kinda cheating. But he shot the little grapefruit sized balloons(water balloons) and also lightbulbs. He was so fast that he could shoot the gun twice and you only heard one bang. I never would’ve believed it if I hadn’t seen it. Before seeing it with my own eyes, I beleived it to be a tale invented by the old western paperback book writers. Another trick he did was hold his shooting hand straight out, palm down, with a lightbulb on the back of his hand. THen he'd draw and fire and pop the lightbulb before it dropped a fraction of an inch.

[sig226]

I think that even if the Supreme Court ruled exactly to uphold Parker, various government entitites would find ways around the ruling or promise to ignore it openly. Unless they specifically address Volkner, it could be another decade before that disaster is undone. It is a step in the right direction, but we have just sat in the front of the bus and the law is only beginning to speak.

Now if we could just get rid of the democrats. :)

[supercat]

My take on this is that any time you start fussing with sears and the like by filing or physically altering the part you risk a runaway gun.

On the Daisy 2003 semi-auto air pistol, which fires from the open bolt, there is a backup sear which is operated by the trigger and does not have a disconnector; that sear will catch the bolt in a 90% decocked position. Many pistols have a similar feature, but I'm unaware of any rifles that do. Not sure why such a feature wouldn't be a good idea, since it would enhance drop-safety if nothing else.

[absolootezer0]

if you’re using a machine gun you do :)

[SFC Chromey]

if you’re using a MINI-GUN you do :)

---

There, fixed it :)

[mamelukesabre]

I just had a talk yesterday with a buddy that works on machineguns for these camps where people go to shoot full auto weapons. He tells me you can still buy the parts through catalogs to make things full auto. BUT, the catch is that ever since 911, those orders for those parts are automatically turned over to the ATF. And if your name isn’t on the list of people that legally own full auto firearms, then you might get a visit from your freindly ATF agent. Apparrently it is still legal to own the parts however, it’s just not legal to assemble them into a working full auto weapon.

He told me some other interesting stuff too. For instance, all full auto sub machine guns firing pistol ammo operate by the open bolt principle...save one. THat is the HK MP5. THis is one of the reasons it is easier to convert HKs to full auto. You see, all the other submachine guns are open bolt mechanism unless you buy the civilian semi-auto only version, then they are closed bolt mechanisms. So you cant take the open bolt parts and use them in your closed bolt civilian version. But with the MP5, you can take the full auto closed bolt parts and use them easily in the closed bolt semi auto version.

Apparently, the uzi is such that it is very easy to take the closed bolt civian semi auto only version and convert it to a closed bolt full auto version via hand fabricated parts. The incredible thing about this conversion is that it is actually superior to the military open bolt full auto version. THe reason is that the open bolt design completely sucks if you are trying for an accurate first shot. A closed bolt select fire weapon is the best of both worlds because it has an accurate single shot and also full auto capability. This is exactly why the MP5 is so well regarded.

It seems the uzi is the only one that has this characteristic.