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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Giovanna,

I hope you won’t take this wrong, but it is not we post-tribbers who have the burden of proof to prove this thing you ask. It is the pretribbers.

Christ himself in the Olivet Discourse (Matt. 24) laid the basics down. He taught us not to look for his coming except the one described in v. 29-31 “immediately after the tribulation of those days.”

As to the epistles, they merely followed Christ’s teaching already established in Matt. 24. They said nothing about another coming other than the one in Matt. 24:29-31 after the tribulation - in which the trumpet sounds and the saints are gathered.

And there is no reason that the Revelation would insert something that had not been already previously established. Therefore the post-trib second coming and rapture in Revelation is the same one in Matt. 24 and in the epistles.

It is the pretribbers who have the burden of proof to prove otherwise - that Paul introduced another coming and rapture additional to the one Christ taught.

The passages in Thessalonians and elsewhere that pretribbers use are merely talking about different aspects of the same event Jesus described in Matt. 24:29-31. If it were a new additional coming, then Paul would have said so. Hence, it is the same one.


237 posted on 10/13/2007 5:27:00 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: sasportas
Sas, your take is exactly what the 7th Day Adventists preach and they can make a very good argument matching the pre-tribs verse for verse in support of this view. It’s why I haven’t signed on to the pre-trib rapture despite the strength of the Revelation arguments noted above. I’m just not convicted by the Holy Spirit on the rapture, at least not yet.
243 posted on 10/13/2007 5:36:36 PM PDT by joebuck
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To: sasportas
Okay.

So we've established that the Church is not mentioned in Scripture as being in the Tribulation. That would be very strange on the part of God except there is no need to address something that doesn't exist. If I, as a "pre-tribber" have to offer proof that the church will not be on earth during the Tribulation that would be it, but something tells me that that still wouldn't be enough for you.

Since you are the one who believes that the Rapture is the same event as the Second Coming of Christ to earth to set up His millennial kingdom which does not take place until after the seven-year Tribulation, I believe the burden is on you, not me, to explain the fact that not only is the Church not mentioned anywhere in Scripture as being part of the Tribulation, but the Church is indeed involved in events in Heaven that take place while the Tribulation is happening.

How, for example, does the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, which is described below as taking place in heaven for the "wife" who has "made herself ready"; aka the Bride of Christ, aka the Church, happen if there is no Rapture before the Tribulation? How do you reconcile your denial of that Scripture?

1 After these things I heard* a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God!

5 Then a voice came from the throne, saying, "Praise our God, all you His servants and those who fear Him, both F100 small and great!" 6 And I heard, as it were, the voice of a great multitude, as the sound of many waters and as the sound of mighty thunderings, saying, "Alleluia! F101 For the Lord God Omnipotent reigns! 7 Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready." 8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints. (Revelation 19:1; 19:5-8)

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb takes place in Heaven while the Tribulation is occurring on earth. If the wife of Christ, the Church, is on earth suffering the judgments of God, then how is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb supposed to take place?

You see, sasportas, you simply cannot reconcile your belief in a posttrib Rapture with Scripture. It's that simple, and no amount of denial and twisting will change that fact.

If you have trusted Christ as your Savior, and you want to believe, for whatever reason, that you will be here during the Tribulation to go through the judgment that the haters of God will go through, be my guest.

You simply will not ever convince me that Christians will be here for the Tribulation. There is just too much Scripture that states otherwise. But if it makes you feel good to think you'll be here for that hellish time, go right ahead.

And by the way- I don't have any burden to prove anything. Jesus Christ already did it for me.

247 posted on 10/13/2007 5:58:25 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: sasportas
Not all but MOST of the greatest Biblical Scholars disagree with what you just said. Don’t let that get in your way though as you already have it figured out. No matter though, I’ll see you on the other side. LOL
286 posted on 10/14/2007 12:11:48 AM PDT by fish hawk (The religion of Darwinism = Monkey Intellect)
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