Mass Slaughter In Our Schools: The Terrorists' Chilling Plan?

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Mass Slaughter In Our Schools: The Terrorists' Chilling Plan?
By Chuck Remsberg
Senior PoliceOne Contributor

Part 1 of 3
Probably the last place you want to think of terrorists striking is your kids' school. But according to two trainers at an anti-terrorism conference on the East Coast, preparations for attacks on American schools that will bring rivers of blood and staggering body counts are well underway in Islamic terrorist camps.

• The intended attackers have bluntly warned us they're going to do it.
• They're already begun testing school-related targets here.They've given us a catastrophic model to train against, which we've largely ignored and they've learned more deadly tactics from.

"We don't know for sure what they will do. No one knows the future. But by definition, a successful attack is one we are not ready for," declared one of the instructors, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman. Our schools fit that description to a "T"-as in Terrorism and Threat.

Grossman, the popular law enforcement motivational speaker, and Todd Rassa, a trainer with the SigArms Academy and an advisory board member for The Police Marksman magazine, shared a full day's agenda on the danger to U.S. schools at a recent three-day conference on terrorist issues, sponsored by the International Assn. of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors (IALEFI) in Atlantic City.

They reminded the audience that patrol officers, including perhaps some with their own children involved, will inevitably be the first responders when terrorists hit. And they documented chilling descriptions of the life-or-death challenges that likely will be faced.

In Part 1 of this three-part report on highlights of their presentations we focus on what's
known about the threat to our schools to date, why terrorists have selected them as targets, and what tactics you're likely to be up against in responding to a sudden strike.

In Parts 2 and 3, we'll explore Grossman's and Rassa's recommendations for practical measures you and your agency can take now to get ready, including some defensive actions that don't require any budget allocations.

Why schools? Two reasons:
1. Our values. "The most sacred thing to us is our children, our babies," Rassa said. Killing hundreds of them at a time would significantly "boost Islamic morale and lower that of the enemy" (us). In Grossman's words, terrorists see this effort as "an attempt to defile our nation" by leaving it "stunned to its soul."

2. Our lack of preparation. Police agencies "aren't used to this," Rassa said. "We deal with acts of a criminal nature. This is an act of war," but because of our laws "we can't depend on the military to help us," at least at the outset.

Indeed, Grossman claimed, "the U.S. in the one nation in the world where the military is not the first line of defense against domestic terrorist attacks. By law, you the police officer are our Delta Force. It is your job to go in, while in most other nations cops will wait for the military to come save their kids."

School personnel, Rassa said, "are not even close" to being either mentally or physically prepared. "Most don't even have response plans for handling a single active shooter. Their world is taught to nurture and care for people. They don't want to deal with this."

The American public, "sticking their heads in the sand, can't be mentally prepared," he said. "They're going to freak when it happens," their stubborn denial making the crisis "all the more shocking."

Noting that "sheep have two speeds: 'graze' and 'stampede,'" Grossman predicted that "not a parent in the nation will send their kids to school the next day"-perhaps for many days-after a large-scale terrorist massacre. If day-care centers-"also on the terrorists' list"-are hit as well, "parents will drop out of the work force" en masse to protect their children and "our economy will be devastated."

How we know they're coming.
Al-Qaeda has publicly asserted the "right" to kill 2,000,000 American children, Rassa explained, and has warned that "operations are in stages of preparation" now. He played vivid videotapes confiscated in Afghanistan, showing al-Qaeda terrorists practicing the takeover of a school. The trainees issue commands in English, rehearse separating youngsters into manageable groups and meeting any resistance with violence. Some "hostages" are taken to the rooftop, dangled over the edge, then "shot."

"Any place that has given [Islamic terrorists] trouble, they've come after the kids," Grossman said. Muslim religious literature, according to Rassa, states clearly that the killing of children not only is "permitted" in Islam but is "approved" by Mohammed, so long as the perpetrators "are striving for the general good" as interpreted by that religion.

He cited instances in Indonesia where girls on their way to school have been beheaded and in other countries where children have been shot, mutilated, raped or burned alive.

In this country this year ['06], Rassa said, there have been several school bus-related incidents involving Middle Eastern males that raise suspicion of terrorist activity. These include the surprise boarding of a school bus in Florida by two men in trench coats, who may have been on a canvassing mission, and the attempt in New York State by an Arab male to obtain a job as a school bus driver using fraudulent Social Security documents. The latter gave an address in Detroit, home to a large colony of fundamentalist Muslims.

Rassa claimed that floor plans for half a dozen schools in Virginia, Texas and New Jersey have been recovered from terrorist hands in Iraq.

The terrorists' tactical model.
A "dress rehearsal for what terrorists plan to do to us" has already taken place, Rassa and Grossman agreed. That was the brutal takedown in 2004 of a school that served children from 6 to 17 years old in Beslan, Russia.

Some 100 terrorists were involved, nearly half of whom were discreetly embedded in the large crowd of parents, staff and kids who showed up for the first day of school; the rest arrived for the surprise attack in SUVs, troop carriers and big sedans. Across a three-day siege, 700 people were wounded and 338 killed, including 172 youngsters.

If a similar assault were launched against a school in your jurisdiction, how would you and your agency respond? Consider this modest sampling of challenges that were deliberately planned or arose from the ensuing chaos at Beslan, as outlined by Rassa:

• The school was chosen because it was one of the taller buildings in the area and had a very complicated floor plan, making a rapid and effective counter-assault by responders extremely difficult. Offender weaponry included AK-47s, sniper rifles, RPGs and explosives, with everything the terrorists needed carried in on their backs. RPGs were fired at a responding military helicopter and at troops.
  
  
• More than 1,000 men, women and children, including babies, were penned in an unventilated gym and a cafeteria. As the days passed without food or water and inside temperatures rose to 115 degrees, survivors were eating flowers they'd brought for teachers and fighting for urine to drink out of their shoes in desperation. Women and some children were repeatedly and continuously raped.
  * Adult males and larger male students were used as "forced labor" to help fortify the building, then shot to death. Bodies were thrown out of an upper-story window, down onto a courtyard. Attempts at negotiation by responders were used by the terrorists strictly as an opportunity to buy time to solidify their fortifications.
  
  
• Surviving hostages were surrounded by armed guards standing on deadman switches, wired to explosives. All entrances to the building as well as stairwells and some interior doorways were booby-trapped. Youngsters were forced to sit on window sills to serve as shields for snipers. "Black widows" (potential suicide bombers) were rigged so their bomb belts could be detonated by remote control when leaders considered the timing was right. The terrorists stayed cranked up on some type of amphetamine to keep awake.
  
  
• Armed, outraged parents and other civilians, some of them drunk, showed up and started "rolling gunfights" outside in a futile effort to defeat the takeover. The crowd identified one embedded terrorist and "literally ripped him apart." The media was everywhere, unrestrained. So many people were milling around that responders often could not establish a clear field of fire.
  
  
• When troops finally stormed the school in a counter-assault on the third day, "pure pandemonium" reigned. Soldiers and the kids they were trying to rescue were gunned down mercilessly. Explosions touched off inside started multiple fires.
  
  
• Responders who made it inside had to jump over trip wires as they "ran" up stairs under fire from above. By then terrorists were holding hostages in virtually every room. Rescue teams were subjected to continual ambushes. Gunfights occurred predominately within a 6-ft. range, with some responders having to fight for their lives in places so cramped they couldn't get off their hands and knees.
  
  
• Some children successfully rescued from the building were so crazed by thirst that they ran to an outdoor spigot and were killed by a grenade as they filled their hands with water.
  
  
• Terrorists who escaped during the melee ran to homes of embedded sympathizers who hid them successfully and were not immediately suspected because they were considered "non-strangers" in the community. Some townspeople who volunteered to help as stretcher bearers for the injured were, in fact, embedded terrorists.
  
  
• During the siege "at least four people or agencies claimed to be in charge. Actually, no one was in charge and no one wanted to be."

"Osama bin Laden has promised that what has happened in Russia will happen to us many times over," Grossman warned. "And Osama tries very hard never to lie to us."

What's likely here.
Probably not so many terrorists involved at a single location. Moving that big a contingent into place would likely attract too much attention and thwart the attack. Grossman describes a more likely possibility, in his opinion:

Terrorist cells of four operatives each might strike simultaneously at four different schools. They may pick elementary schools, or middle schools with no police officers on site, where the girls are "old enough to rape" but students are not big enough to fight back effectively.

The targets may be in states "with no concealed-carry laws and no hunting culture" and in communities where "police do not have rifles." Rural areas could be favored, where 30 minutes or more might be required for responders to arrive in force.

The attackers will probably "mow down every kid and teacher they see" as they move in to seize the school. They may plant bombs throughout the buildings, and "rape, murder and throw out bodies like they did in Russia." Emergency vehicles responding and children fleeing will be blown up by car bombs in the parking lot.

In all, 100 to 300 children could be slaughtered in a first strike.

Terrorists capable of this are already embedded in communities "all over America," Grossman and Rassa agreed. More will probably gain entry surreptitiously from Mexico, making southern California potentially a prime target.

No time for despair.
It's a grim picture, for certain. "But if we think there's nothing we can do to prepare, that is a defeatist mentality," Rassa said. "We ought to be trying. If we're not trying, we're failing. We may as well give up our guns and surrender now.

"I can't think of a better thing to train up for than protecting our kids. If we try but fall short, look at how much else we'll still be able to handle than we can now.

"What made most of us do active-shooter training? The killings at Columbine. Are we going to wait for something far worse than that before we do the most that we can to stop the terrorists who are coming for our schools?"

Part 2 of 3

"4 Ds" For Thwarting Terrorists' Plans To Massacre Our School Children
[Editor's Note: In Part 1, we documented the plans of Islamic terrorists to strike U.S. schools in murderous raids, claiming the lives of hundreds of children, as reported at a recent anti-terrorism conference, sponsored by the International Assn. of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors (IALEFI). In Part 2, we summarize countermeasures proposed by one of the conference instructors, Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, author of the popular books On Killing and On Combat.]

As Instructor Todd Rassa pointed out in our first installment, if we are not trying to prepare for and thwart the daunting terrorist threat to our schools and children, we are, in effect, conceding defeat and surrendering without a battle to those who would obliterate us.

There is no simple master plan for an easy victory. But the cumulative effect of many seemingly small countermeasures, effectively applied on a large scale by individual officers and their agencies, can have a powerful impact.

Here are some of the practicalities that Trainer Dave Grossman suggested we consider in beginning to address the critical problem of terrorists coming for our kids.

First mission.
That's overcoming denial. And where schools and terrorist attacks are concerned, denial abounds.

U.S. schools continue to take extensive and overt measures to guard students against the threat of fire, with drills, alarms, sprinkler systems, building codes, etc.-even though there has not been a single child killed by fire in any American school in the last 25 years, Grossman declared.

In contrast, well over 200 deaths have occurred from school violence by active shooters and other non-terrorist offenders over the last dozen years, and Islamic fundamentalists are believed to be plotting attacks that will claim hundreds of child casualties in a single blow. Yet efforts to significantly harden schools as a target of violence have, for the most part, been slow, timid or nonexistent.

"We need to treat the threat of violence like the threat of fire. But if you try to prepare for violence, people think you're crazy, paranoid," Grossman said.

"Denial is the enemy. It's a big, fluffy white blanket we pull up over our eyes to convince ourselves the bad men are never going to come. And while we pull that blanket up, bad guys come and kick us in the crotch.

"Let's face the lessons terrorists have already taught us in blood and lives. They are coming, and they may well come for our schools, our kids. We've had all the warning in the world. And if we continue living in denial, then all the lives they've claimed to date have been sacrificed for nothing."

Grossman's 4 Ds.
Besides working to eliminate the big D (denial), Grossman cited four others we need to focus on:

1. Deter
An armed police presence in a school can provide strong deterrence against attack, Grossman argued. "Terrorists are willing to die, but they desperately don't want to die for nothing, without completing their tactical objective. They want a body count."

To squelch would-be attackers, many Israeli schools deploy on-site police at squad-level strength, and armed guards accompany all class fieldtrips, usually one per 10 students. But even with a single armed officer in a school, "the prospects of a massacre go way down," Grossman said.

Having unarmed security in or around schools is both pointless and ethically derelict, in his opinion. "Don't give someone responsibility for human lives and not give them the tools to do the job. You wouldn't give a firefighter just a hat, uniform and badge, and no hose or water."

Should teachers be armed? At least two states (Utah and New Hampshire) now authorize concealed-carry permits in schools, according to Grossman, and the Federal Safe Schools Act allows for it. Faculty with military experience and a willingness to receive additional training could be a starting point.

"Even one or two armed teachers in a school can make a difference," Grossman said. But given the current American mind-set, "you have to push this envelope very gently."

2. Detect
"The ultimate achievement is a terrorist takeover that doesn't start," Grossman said. And officers being suspicious-"doing what cops do"-are well positioned to interrupt attack plans before they culminate.

Follow good criminal patrol procedures on traffic stops, for instance, by asking probing questions and being alert for contradictions, inconsistencies, irrationalities, unduly nervous behavior and other indicators of deceit and guilty behavior. Be aware of what you can see inside vehicles or on subjects that may merit closer investigation.

Watch for signs of static or mobile surveillance of potential targets. Terrorists "always conduct a recon," which may involve photographing or videotaping a prospective site, Grossman said. Don't limit your suspicions just to persons who fit the stereotypical terrorist profile. "There are terrorists who are blond and blue eyed."

Inform schools to report any calls from people inquiring about security. Someone claiming to be a concerned parent wanting to know if any armed officers are on the premises may in fact be an operative gauging the vulnerability of the location. The staffer taking the call should jot down the caller ID number and note the precise time and the phone line the call came in on to facilitate follow up checking by police. "Any time terrorists bounce off a hard target is a chance to catch them."

3. Delay
If terrorists do strike, "one man or woman with effective fire from behind cover inside the school can hold off a group of attackers for 5 minutes," saving lives by buying time until police responders "can get in the door," Grossman claimed.

Meantime, at the first hint of trouble, teachers and children should kick in to a preplanned and frequently rehearsed three-step "lock-down model," he recommended. "Sheltering" children in place, as has been attempted in various school shootings, is more likely to be dangerous than protective. Instead, Grossman advises potential victims to:

• Move away from violence, which otherwise tends to be "mesmerizing and paralyzing"
• Move to a pre-selected secure location, someplace "secure enough to keep the bad guys out until the cops come in"
• Move again if you have reason to feel threatened at that spot. "Lock-down does not mean hunker down and die," Grossman said.

"As a last resort," there may be times when a teacher would need the courage to "go toward an attacker." Grossman cited a case in which an active shooter broke a window in a classroom door and reached through to release the locked knob. Teacher and students cowered inside and just waited, whereas a teacher might have "grabbed a chair and attacked his hand" and possibly have delayed or deterred a fatal assault.

Plans on paper "mean nothing," Grossman reminded. "You have to get the schools to rehearse" anti-terrorist scenarios. "Principals have been fired for not doing fire drills," and yet the terrorist threat these days is so much greater. Where are our priorities?

4. Destroy
As a responding officer, you have to be fully prepared, mentally and physically, to use deadly force to stop the threat. "It is your job to put a chunk of steel in your fist and kill the sons-of-bitches who are coming to kill your kids," Grossman declared in an emotional crescendo in his presentation.

"Fight from the very beginning. Don't wait, thinking you'll fight later." Referring to the terrorist massacre at the school in Beslan, Russia, which we described in Part 1 of this series, Grossman said: "Every minute the Russians waited, the target got harder." If you hesitate in responding, "you'll die with a bullet in the back of your head in front of children."

Part 3 of 3

How To Prepare Yourself For Terrorist Attacks On Our Schools
[Editor's note: In previous installments, we documented the plans of Islamic terrorists to murder hundreds of U.S. school children, as reported at a recent anti-terrorism conference sponsored by the International Assn. of Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors (IALEFI), and we summarized counter measures proposed by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman.

In this final report, we explore recommendations of another conference speaker, Todd Rassa, a trainer with the SigArms Academy and a member of the advisory board for The Police Marksman magazine. We conclude with Grossman's suggestions of what LE agencies can do to defend our schools despite current budget restraints.]

Trainer Todd Rassa considers active-shooter training, which is now being embraced by more and more departments, as "a good start," but he warned that much more is needed to adequately protect our children from terrorist attacks on schools.

Here are some of the items he enumerated for a conscientious "to do" list:

Rassa's recommendations.
1. Train every patrol officer in bomb awareness, crowd management, riot control, ballistic shield tactics, team firing drills and other response skills likely to be needed for a mass school takedown. Responsibility for an immediate effective response will most probably fall heavily on street cops, given the activation time for most SWAT teams.

2. Proper equipment needs to be readied. "Patrol rifles are needed now-as many as possible with as much ammunition as possible," Rassa stressed. Also ballistic shields, helmets and other protective devices for every officer. Have a plan in place to get large amounts of additional ammo to the scene ASAP.
Soft body armor may prove inadequate, but extras should be available anyway in a better-than-nothing effort to protect fleeing hostages by draping vests and ballistic blankets over them. Armored transport vehicles may prove crucial. Less-lethal rounds may be useful for crowd control, but will be futile to attempt against terrorists.

3. Work with school officials to anticipate problems and realistically rewrite their emergency plans. "They are not going to fix themselves," Rassa predicted. Cross-train with school personnel and consider involving community leaders with training on crowd-control tactics and intel collection. Manpower and tactics will be needed to handle "outraged, violent parents" if a siege develops.
SROs, who likely will be targeted by terrorists as first casualties, need training on "surveillance awareness, including real-life testing of school security" by would-be invaders.

4. Expand your active-shooter training to include "large, complicated, multi-adversary scenarios and exercises," Rassa urged. Practice against a booby-trapped environment, simultaneous attacks from multiple levels, ambushes from the rear. Rehearse tactics for CQB with both pistol and rifle.
Also practice counter-assaults on school buses. "What if terrorists hijacked a couple of buses and drove them into a school? What if they hijacked several and spread them out across your town?"

5. Incorporate suicide-bomber shooting drills into your firearms training for every officer. That should include "practicing head shots from a distance with a pistol after running." Build the ability to shoot while moving into your qualifications. Also integrate self-defense DT into firearms training-"blending two important worlds that usually never meet." Even consider training with AK-47s and other "exotic" weapons that may be in your property room, on the chance you may have to use the weapons of neutralized terrorists if yours run empty.

6. Thoroughly familiarize yourself with your schools. Videotape them inside and out and collect and review floor plans, making sure they are kept up to date as remodeling projects take place. Work with schools to get classroom numbers put on street signs and mounted on the exterior. Also check to see if computers in your squad cars can be made compatible with CCTV cameras inside the building, so you can tie in to what's going inside in event of trouble.

7. As a parent, you may want to falsify your occupation (as a police office) on school records so your child will not be easily identified as a desirable hostage.

8. And, of course, stage frequent incident-command training and exercises, so multiple jurisdictions and multiple disciplines (fire, police, EMS, city services, etc.) learn the importance of putting political egos and turf wars aside in the interest of saving children's lives.

Agency actions that don't take $$$
Dave Grossman, the well-known author of On Killing and On Combat, concluded IALEFI's excellent conference with suggestions of how LE agencies can improve their protection of schools without further straining already tight budgets.

1. Encourage officers always to carry off-duty. Always.
No one can predict where a given officer might be when terrorists strike. What if you were off-duty on a visit to your child's school; would you have the primary life-saving tool of your profession with you? Remember, Grossman said, "One person behind cover with effective fire can hold down a whole company of invaders for 5 minutes" while help arrives.
" If we stop them dead in one school and kill them before they kill kids, that will convince the country that we can fight back. If they fail in one school, that will undermine their plan.
" If you walk out off-duty without your gun, every time you pass a fire exit or see a fire extinguisher, say to yourself, 'Firefighters have made more preparations than I have.' Plant the seed with other officers. Once you tell them, they can't not think about it."

2. Exploit opportunities to expand your equipment inventory.

• Many cash-strapped agencies now encourage officers to buy and carry their own rifles on duty. If certain standards and training are maintained, that's a quick way to strengthen your counter-force.
  
  
• Officers should also be encouraged to prepare and ride with "go bags" that can be slung over their shoulder as they head into a crisis. Loaded with backup boxes of pistol and rifle ammo, these can be comforting safeguards against running dry in a firefight, where "three magazines can easily be burned up in less than a minute."
  
  
• Get the name and phone number of every private owner of a helicopter in your area and coordinate with them ahead of time a plan for pressing their chopper into service in an emergency. Even news agencies might be willing to cooperate if promised "great footage" in exchange for transporting officers to a siege site. As medivac helicopters go in, they should come in full of armed police, and go out full of wounded.
  " There will be gridlock chaos on the ground within moments wherever an attack comes," Grossman said. "Helicopters can be great for getting firepower in and wounded out." Practice hovering over schools and landing personnel on the flat roofs that most have.
  
  
• Envision fire hoses as "crew-served weapons." At a terrorist scene, hoses can be used not only "to put out fires that may be caused by booby traps" but can also "knock a combatant out of a window 50 yards away-an incredibly effective weapon."
  A firefighter directing the hose can be protected behind two officers holding ballistic shields and two officers behind the shields with rifles, Grossman suggested. Obviously, this tactic requires practice well before it's needed.

3. Build the right mind-set in your troops.
As a police officer, "you have to have your heart and mind ready," Grossman said. "In our nation, the military is not coming to save your kids. You are the Delta Force. It's your job to go in like thunder when they come to kill your kids and destroy your way of life.
" Get training-all you can. Advance steadily along the warrior path. Live life in Condition Yellow, vigilant readiness. Cultivate hobbies that reinforce your survival skills."
He conjured a bumper sticker that says, Piss on golf. Real Americans go to the range. "We don't have time for childish pursuits," he declared.
" Most people in our society are sheep. Wolves will feed on them without hesitation. Anyone who thinks there are no wolves is in denial.
" You are the sheepdog, the protector. When bad stuff comes, the sheepdog is prepared, even eager. If you are not ready, who is?"

*****************************************************************
About Charles Remsberg
Chuck co-founded the original Street Survival Seminar and the Street Survival Newsline, authored three of the best-selling law enforcement training textbooks, and helped produce numerous award-winning training videos. His nearly three decades of work earned him the prestigious O.W. Wilson Award for outstanding contributions to law enforcement and the American Police Hall of Fame Honor Award for distinguished achievement in public service.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>I’m glad to hear that you didn’t know any Klansmen, but I was unable to find a record of anyone being arrested for a lynching.<<<

Hey, pinhead, there is no dispute that blacks were lynched in the South. If you would please get your brain out of the racist gutter for a brief instant, you will find that my objections to your race-bating posts were primarily on two points you made:

1) “Most Southerners were not members of the Klan, but they didn’t go after the Klan, because they felt that despite a few excesses, they generally held the same views” (that was your statement, word-for-word, in post #30).

2) “Open racism and not so hidden lynchings happened because the majority of southern whites were OK with it. Men listed the Klan on their resume and paraded down main street in their relalia because the majority of people were OK with it” (that was your statement, word-for-word, in post #316).

If that is your “historical” knowledge of the South, you truly are a blithering idiot.

[LanaTurnerOverdrive]

ping

[SampleMan]

Hey, pinhead, there is no dispute that blacks were lynched in the South. If you would please get your brain out of the racist gutter for a brief instant, you will find that my objections to your race-bating posts were primarily on two points you made:

Don't be an idiot. Your statements are non sequitor accusations. Perhaps you're projecting.

1) “Most Southerners were not members of the Klan, but they didn’t go after the Klan, because they felt that despite a few excesses, they generally held the same views” (that was your statement, word-for-word, in post #30).

Yea, I stand by that.

2) “Open racism and not so hidden lynchings happened because the majority of southern whites were OK with it. Men listed the Klan on their resume and paraded down main street in their relalia because the majority of people were OK with it” (that was your statement, word-for-word, in post #316).

Yep, I stand by that. And as you haven't presented any argument to counter it, it appears that you don't really disagree with it either. You just don't like to hear it.

If that is your “historical” knowledge of the South, you truly are a blithering idiot.

Its not the limit of my knowledge, but its certainly true.

[SampleMan]

What does that have to do with my statement that I recalled only a few incidents of racism in the form of fighting or obscenity shouting? Please try to follow the conversation.

Because when you segregate the population, you ensure that people don't see the other side. Of course you didn't see a lot of racism, if blacks weren't allowed in your school, or in your places of business. Its a lot neater and cleaner than way.

For the record, the first blacks attended my high school when I was a junior (that is the 11th Grade for those in Rio Linda).

Great. The end of segregation was the beginning of the end of open racism, as people had to confront it. Hopefully Eisenhower didn't have to send troops to your town.

You did not. You made the outrageous claim that a majority of Southern whites were OK with lynchings. Only a blithering idiot, or a race baiter, would make such a claim. Are you a blithering idiot, or a race baiter?

History is history. How you can claim that a society that did not pursue lynchers and ignored violence against one segment was not commonly accountable is wishful thinking on your part.

Please get your history straight, sonny, and not straight from the mouths of leftwing nutjobs or the so-called “Rainbow Coalition”.

Look pops, I've been waiting for you to set the record straight and show me how the majority of South Carolinians had segregation forced on them, or how I was wrong about tacit support for extra-judicial practices.

I'm sorry for you that you can't accept that the society you grew up in was supporting of racism. It was. That doesn't mean everyone in it was evil or even racist. Obviously things were changing for the better during the 40's-60's.

An analogy today is abortion. The majority of our society is supportive of infanticide. Even if they wouldn't do it themselves, they feel that its acceptable for lesser people and they do nothing to stop it.

Someday, God willing, when infanticide is no longer acceptable, I won't be lecturing people how American society was never supportive of the practice.

The society you grew up in was likely far better than todays culture in most every other way, from what I've been told and what I've seen, but you can't bury your head in the sand about what actually happened.

PS, if you don't want to get banned, you might want to learn how to post without name calling. I've got thicker skin than most.

[gracesdad]

“I also think they could easily target large churches in this country and the libs would have NO OUTRAGE it since they hate Christians so much! Libs would consider it a victory to have many Christians slaughtered as that would remove much of the conservative base and help to increase the Dems power.”

I nominate this post for the most baseless hyperbole on the entire thread.

[SampleMan]

I nominate this post for the most baseless hyperbole on the entire thread.

Over and over, the Left has met the persecution of Christian missionaries with statements suggesting that they had it coming (because missionary work is an anethma to multiculturalism). I think its quite likely that such an episode as described by a real Sheila would be met by similar reactions from the Daily Kos crowd.

I don't think it would be a full 24 hours before the MSM started leading stories with the open question, "Did a lack of tolerance from Christians bring this about."

[a real Sheila]

It is amusing how some folks here on FR choose to insult those with whom they disagree rather than simply stating the reasons for a difference in opinon. I think by doing the later, you JUST MIGHT give me something to consider.

[radiohead]

Simultaneous attacks on several major universities was a distinct possibility

I don't know what kind of press it is getting outside of the affected campuses, but several colleges have recently been getting a rash of bomb threats, UIowa, where I am, included.

We are getting all kinds of 'be alert' messages from the administration. So far, nothing has happened, but it is all very strange.

[Badeye]

I’ve noticed that as well.

[LukeL]

I know a bunch of people who would patrol schools with their mini-14a and AR-15s, and they would do it for free.

[gracesdad]

“I also think they could easily target large churches in this country and the libs would have NO OUTRAGE it since they hate Christians so much! Libs would consider it a victory to have many Christians slaughtered as that would remove much of the conservative base and help to increase the Dems power.”

“It is amusing how some folks here on FR choose to insult those with whom they disagree rather than simply stating the reasons for a difference in opinon. I think by doing the later, you JUST MIGHT give me something to consider.”

What is that I could say that would change your mind from your original statement if you weren’t kidding or being facetious? No liberals I know personally would celebrate the slaughter of a church or churches full of people. Churches are not universally full of conservatives — there are any number of liberals in my own church. We generally see eye-to-eye on spiritual matters and just agree to disagree on other things.

You’d also have to hit quite a few carefully selected mega churches to make any actually difference in the number of conservative voters.

When the Twin Towers were hit, among the dead were a fair number of business and Wall Street type people, many of whom I expect voted Republican. I don’t recall liberals celebrating their deaths.

[SampleMan]

When the Twin Towers were hit, among the dead were a fair number of business and Wall Street type people, many of whom I expect voted Republican. I don’t recall liberals celebrating their deaths.

Maybe you just don't pay very close attention:

"They did not license themselves to "target innocent civilians." There is simply no argument to be made that the Pentagon personnel killed on September 11 fill that bill. The building and those inside comprised military targets, pure and simple. As to those in the World Trade Center . . . Well, really. Let's get a grip here, shall we? True enough, they were civilians of a sort. But innocent? Gimme a break. They formed a technocratic corps at the very heart of America's global financial empire ? the "mighty engine of profit" to which the military dimension of U.S. policy has always been enslaved ? and they did so both willingly and knowingly. Recourse to "ignorance" ? a derivative, after all, of the word "ignore" ? counts as less than an excuse among this relatively well-educated elite. To the extent that any of them were unaware of the costs and consequences to others of what they were involved in ? and in many cases excelling at ? it was because of their absolute refusal to see. More likely, it was because they were too busy braying, incessantly and self-importantly, into their cell phones, arranging power lunches and stock transactions, each of which translated, conveniently out of sight, mind and smelling distance, into the starved and rotting flesh of infants. If there was a better, more effective, or in fact any other way of visiting some penalty befitting their participation upon the little Eichmanns inhabiting the sterile sanctuary of the twin towers, I'd really be interested in hearing about it. The men who flew the missions against the WTC and Pentagon were not "cowards."Ward Churchill 9-11-2001

"Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed; Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers To stay home that day Why did Sharon stay away? Who? Who? Who" -- New Jersey poet laureate Amiri Bakara

"Anthrax did not come from a cave in Afghanistan," but from "[t]he same people who blew up the building in Oklahoma City, Ruby Ridge, the terror attack in Atlanta, Georgia - those same anti-union forces....'Ashcroft is using the FBI as one weapon, the IRS as another weapon, and leaks to the right-wing media as another weapon' to 'destroy the leadership' of organized labor." Jesse Jackson at speech to AFL-CIO in Dec, 2001

"This president is trying to bring to himself all the power to become an emperor to create Empire America. If you go along like sheep that is what will happen." Jim McDermott (D - WA)

"The government] plays off [Americans'] relative innocence, or ignorance to be more precise. This is probably why geography has not really been taught since World War II -- to keep people in the dark as to where we are blowing things up. Because Enron wants to blow them up. Or Unocal, the great pipeline company, wants a war going some place." Gore Vidal in the LA Weekly

"The current junta in charge of our affairs, one not legally elected, but put in charge of us by the Supreme Court in the interests of the oil and gas and defense lobbies, have used first Oklahoma City and now September 11 to further erode things." Gore Vidal in the LA Weekly

"When I see an American flag flying, it's a joke." Robert Altman

"Now [African Americans] are supposed to fight and die for a racist corrupt government in yet another imperialist war, when it is the U.S. which has clearly brought on this attack. We are supposed to fight for a country where we still have limited social, economic and political rights, and where we are still subject to death by any racist cop or citizen, where there is widespread poverty, mass imprisonment of the youth, and massive unemployment concentrated in the Black community. The obvious question is what the hell are we fighting for? To avenge America? To mourn America? Why, we don't owe this country anything." Lorenzo Komboa Ervin, CounterPunch

"Patriotism threatens free speech with death. It is infuriated by thoughtful hesitation, constructive criticism of our leaders and pleas for peace. It despises people of foreign birth. It has specifically blamed homosexuals, feminists and the American Civil Liberties Union. In other words, the American flag stands for intimidation, censorship, violence, bigotry, sexism, homophobia and shoving the Constitution through a paper shredder. Whom are we calling terrorists here?" Barbara Kingsolver, novelist, Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, September 27, 2001

"America has an almost obscene infatuation with itself. Has there ever been a big, powerful country that is as patriotic as America? And patriotic in the tinniest way, with so much flag waving? You'd really think we were some poor little republic, and that if one person lost his religion for one hour, the whole thing would crumble. America is the real religion in this country." Norman Mailer

"My daughter, who goes to Stuyvesant High School only blocks from the World Trade Center, thinks we should fly an American flag out our window. Definitely not, I say: The flag stands for jingoism and vengeance and war." Katha Pollitt, The Nation, October 8, 2001

"While the rest of the country waves the flag of Americana, we understand we are not part of that. We don't owe America anything - America owes us." Al Sharpton at the "State of the Black World Conference" in Atlanta

There are a lot more concerning just Christians if you would like, but they really aren't that hard to find.

[SampleMan]

We generally see eye-to-eye on spiritual matters and just agree to disagree on other things.

So would you put abortion, sexual deviance, free condoms, and kindergarten sex-ed in the religious or political column?

[Brad’s Gramma]

Placemarker

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>History is history. How you can claim that a society that did not pursue lynchers and ignored violence against one segment was not commonly accountable is wishful thinking on your part.<<<

I apologize for not responding to you sooner. My Mother has been in critical care. She is recovering now.

You cite “History” as your source. How about some real history? How about some references that support your slander that (I quote you) “...a majority of Southern whites were OK with lynchings.” Spit it out, lefty.

[PhilipFreneau]

BTW, “non sequitor”, as you mentioned in post 383, is a non-conservative liberal apologist who just happens to post on Free Republic. I have sparred with that liar in the past. Are you “Non-Sequitor” in disguise? If so, that would explain your bizarre “history” of the South.

[condi2008]

Bump to read later.

[SampleMan]

Are you “Non-Sequitor” in disguise?

Why don't you do an FR search of my posts and read them. If that doesn't clarify things for you nothing will. FYI, "non sequitor" is Latin and is used to mean "your argument does not logically follow from your statement just made, e.g. The house is dirty, so the grass won't grow.

If so, that would explain your bizarre “history” of the South.

By bizarre "history" I assume you mean my insistence that forced segregation existed in the South and that a certain amount of extra-judicial action against blacks was accepted by the white majority? Given that all of the facts are on my side, I'll standby that.

You've done a lot of whining and crying, but to date you've produced nothing to support your version of history. A history where segregation existed without racism and blacks were happy and content in knowing their place. I've asked you to give me a smidgen of proof that I'm wrong on this, but curiously all you have is an assertion that you had a happy childhood and never saw any racism. Have you never wondered why blacks seemed content to live under Jim Crow? What could it have been that kept them from speaking out?

So you can't figure out what my ax to grind is on this, and think I must be a liberal in drag. Well, here's my ax:

There are sins of commission and omission, but in between there is also the sin of collusion which can be fairly passive. This occurs when someone knows of sin that they should object to, but they don't because they find benefit in it.

If the vast majority of Muslims were not committing this sin of collusion concerning violent acts by islamists to make others submit, it would stop.

Your beef with this is when I stated that the same was true in the American South up to the 1950's with regard to Jim Crow and extra-judicial actions. You somehow think that the vast majority of Southern whites were always against Jim Crow laws, and vigorously despised mob action to enforce it. If you can show me any proof of this at all, I'd be most happy to change my mind.

You appear fixated on the notion that my conclusion is that the South is/was full of bad people. That is not the case.

[SampleMan]

I'm glad your mother is recovering and doing better.

You cite “History” as your source. How about some real history? How about some references that support your slander that (I quote you) “...a majority of Southern whites were OK with lynchings."

Lynchings occurred. No convictions nor even outcries followed from the majority. What is your conclusion on that?

[CHEE]

If the muslims pull this off the weenies of the left will blame it on Bush/Rush not the terrorist.