Posted on 08/10/2007 5:28:04 PM PDT by bnelson44
I. Presidential aspirant Mike Gravel recently opined on the advantages of having gays in the military: “...the Spartans trained their people to be homosexuals because they were better fighters.”
Not quite.
I think the popular myth that has fooled Gravel has arisen lately because of the movie 300 — and the natural confusion between the Spartan 300 who died holding the pass at Thermopylai (480 BC) and the 300 of the Theban Sacred Band (378-338 BC).
The Spartans did not instruct their youth to be homosexuals (no word really exists in the Greek vocabulary for our notion of homosexual). Xenophon (Lac. Pol. 2.13), for example, insisted that the older males in the army were specifically not to engage in physical relations with their younger warrior-pages (paidika).
And if in reality some hoplite soldiers occasionally did engage in what we would call gay sex, in Sparta or elsewhere, the practice was analogous to the protocols of the modern prison in the absence of women: physical relationships were loosely defined among those interested as an active older male and a younger male that served as a surrogate female.
In general, most Greeks thought that male sexual passivity was shameful, as was exclusively male sex, as were those who appeared outwardly feminine.
The closest the classical Greek world of the polis came to Gravel’s notion of an idealized gay warrior cult was in Thebes, where the 300 aristocrats (150 pairs of “lovers”) of the Sacred Band fought often at the acme of the phalanx-a very small cadre (perhaps less than 2-3% of the Boiotian army) that was predicated on class and philosophically idealized.
But even here we are not quite sure what actually was the relationship between eromenoi (“beloved”) and erastai (“lovers”) in this tiny clique; it might not necessarily have even been physical.
So in general, the Spartans most certainly did not train their soldiers to be homosexuals.
II. Just saw an eerie tape of a smiling Prof. John Mearsheimer (“A very small percentage of the American casualties is due to the Iranians” and “Iran is not responsible in any meaningful way for our trouble in Iraq”) expounding on Iran and the bomb at the recent Daily Kos convention.
I say eerie since he gave a brief excursus on Persian philology and why we have been hoodwinked into thinking that Ahmadinejad said something to the effect that Israel should be wiped off the map.
But aside from the ongoing dispute between Persian scholars over the proper translation, to dwell on that point is to ignore the serial assertions (and reasons for such assertions) by Ahmadinejad that there was no Holocaust, and the far scarier announcement not long ago by Rafsanjani that “the use of a nuclear bomb in Israel will leave nothing on the ground, whereas it will only damage the world of Islam.”
Mearsheimer then followed almost immediately with a disclaimer that even if Ahmadinejad did actually say what he just had insisted he didn’t say, that it was a mere “idle threat.”
But “idle” for whom, a mere 60 years after the Holocaust?
Even worse was his moral equivalence of arguing that it is de facto permissible for Iran to have a bomb since Israel has one too-as if an anti-American theocracy run according to Sharia Law is no more a nuclear threat than a pro-American liberal democracy
“no word really exists in the Greek vocabulary for our notion of homosexual)”
So how did the greeks seperate the men from the boys? with a crow bar.
In Think a Second Time, Dennis Prager explains that in the ancient world there was no stigma about homosexual acts (or beastiality for that matter) so long as the male was the penetrator. The stigma was only on a male who was penetrated. Which is why there is no world meaning "homosexual" in Greek. That would cover both the pitcher and the catcher, so to speak, which made no sense. It was the Jews who first put forth the idea that all sex except between a man and woman was a sin.
I beg to differ with the Gentleloon from Alaska.
The evidence I've seen shows that straight men are better than gay men at targeting (aiming an object at a target). Seems to me this was (and still is) an important trait for a warrior.
Gravel is good for laughs but should be kept at least 100 miles from the Pentagon.
His newest book, A War Like No Other: How the Athenians and Spartans Fought the Peloponnesian War, was published by Random House in October 2005. It was named one of the New York Times Notable 100 Books of 2006.
Not really true however. Juvenal's writings show that.
In short,with regard to the ancient Greeks this man knows what he is talking about. How unusual in this day and age.
....there is no word meaning homosexual in Greek..
Wow, just wow, I have spent hours debating Scripture and Gay marriage, and that just made everything very clear.
Thanks for the insight.
He is somewhat correct in that for the male to be penetrated was a degredation in ancient Greece (and Rome for that matter). The passive role was acceptable only for “inferiors”, such as women, slaves, or male youths who were not yet citizens. The erastes (older man) had to show that he had nobler interests in the boy, rather than a purely sexual concern and penetration was usually avoided between the two. The relationship was temporary and was suppose to end boy reaching adulthood (able to grow a beard).
The term ‘homosexuality’ was coined in the late 19th century by a German psychologist, Karoly Maria Benkert.
I’m not sure he is a good example. Looks like he was pretty messed up:
http://newcriterion.com:81/archive/21/apr03/juvenal.htm
thank you Victor!
(now if only Rush would read this because he specifically mentioned Victor)
Juvenal was a Roman writing in the late first and early second centuries AD. Prager was discussing the world of the per-Roman Eastern Mediterranian/Middle East several hundred to thousands of years earlier. So is this article for that matter. Perhaps I should have been more specific.
the ancient athenians used to stone to death men who were caught molesting boys.
much of the homosexualizing of history is by western ivory towerists mistranslating greek to english. (mentor vs lover etc.)
Juvenal was also a very confused poet.
I thought that all of the Homosexuality was rampant” stuff came from Cretian practices were the mentor would take the boy up in the hills for “training”.
My goodness I have went round and round about “male temple prostitutes” (OT) for 3 years now, and “Homosexuality is not mentioned by Jesus” that Pauline Apologetics has become a part time job.
That factoid makes things much clearer.
Nice tip.
In ancient India, homosexuality was known and The Laws of Manu (1st century BC) prescribe certain punishments for homosexual intercourse, with the degree of severity depending on gender, social and marital status (see Homosexuality in Ancient India).
Xenophon (Lac. Pol. 2.13), for example, insisted that the older males in the army were specifically not to engage in physical relations with their younger warrior-pages (paidika).
Yet in the story of Xenophon’s Retreat there is the miention of an old man, referred to as a boy lover, saving a young man from being killed just so he could have the boy as a lover. It was not considered normal or else why would it have been mentioned.
(perhaps less than 2-3% of the Boiotian army)
Boiotia. Didn’t the other Greek states consider this state to be the equivalent of country bumpkin hillbillies? Much like Arkansas.
Nikos Vrissimtzis, the author of Love, Sex and Marriage - a Guide to the Private Life of the Ancient Greeks, said in a BBC report:
“Contrary to popular opinion, that world was not a paradise for homosexuals, and paedaracy was held in such contempt that it was very heavily punished... Homosexuals were not, as many believed, openly accepted by society. They were marginalised and punished by law,” Vrissimtzis says. “For example, they could not enter the ancient Agora [the business and government center of a Greek city] or participate in ranks and rituals involving the state.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/428798.stm
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