Posted on 07/27/2007 10:36:59 PM PDT by NOOBIE
The Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office arrested activists Mark and Deborah Kuhn in West Asheville Wednesday morning after a complaint that the couple was desecrating an American flag. They say a deputy invaded their home and used excessive force. [The photo at right, taken by a neighbor, shows Mark on the ground, with Deborah standing by, during the arrest.]
The flag was hung upside down as an act of protest and had several statements pinned to it, including a picture of President Bush with the words “Out Now” upon it and one explaining the meaning of the upside down flag, a sign of distress.
The Kuhns, along with several neighbors and witnesses, assert that a sheriff’s deputy violently invaded their home at 68 Brevard Road. The sheriff’s office claims that the couple assaulted deputy Brian Scarborough and resisted arrest.
According to the report from the sheriff’s office, Scarborough arrived at the home at 8:45 a.m. in response to a complaint about the desecration of a flag.
Lt. Randy Sorrell says that while the address was in the city of Asheville, “when we receive a complaint that the law is being broken, we have to respond.”
Under a rarely enforced state statute, it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag. The Kuhns said the flag was taken as evidence, though the sheriff’s department has no record of it.
After knocking on the door, the couple answered it and, after being shown the statute, said they complied and took the flag down. Scarborough then asked for their identification.
“The flag covered our whole front porch; he comes up with this printout about the law and tells us that we can’t attach things to the flag, that we’re desecrating it,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We tell him we’re not meaning to desecrate it — all we had was a picture of [President] Bush with ‘out now’ on it and a note saying this was not a sign of distress or disrespect. We did this because the country is in distress and we don’t know what to do.”
Then, she said, Scarborough “started talking arrest, so we took the flag down. He kept wanting to see our ID. We refused. We said, ‘Why should we show you our ID — are you arresting us?’; so we walked back into the house and closed the door.”
There, the accounts diverge. According to Deborah Kuhn, Scarborough “tried to force the door, but we got it closed and locked it with the deadbolt. He then kicked it, punched the glass out, unlocked our door and came after us.”
The sheriff’s office report states that “the man [Mark Kuhn] refused to identify himself and slammed the door on the officer’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting the officer’s hand.”
However, the Kuhns’ account is backed up by Jimmy Stevenson, who was working with Ace Hardwood Floors nearby and asserts that he saw Scarborough break down the door.
“I saw that one cop [Scarborough] pull up and I saw those people come out on the porch and start talking to him,” Stevenson said. “They took their flag down, asked the officer to leave and closed the door. Then he started kicking the door, he kicked it about five or six good times, then he laid right into it. After he got done kicking it, he broke the window out – I saw him hit the window.”
Deborah Kuhn says that Scarborough then “pursued my husband into the kitchen, they were scuffling, [and] Mark was trying to get away from him. He pulls out his billy club and I call 911 and say that an officer has broken into our house and is assaulting us.”
Scarborough sustained a cut to his arm when the window broke and Mark Kuhn had several cuts on his face from the scuffle with Scarborough.
“I was just trying to defend myself and back away from him,” Kuhn said. “They never, ever told us why we were being arrested until we were in jail.”
Deborah Kuhn asserted that no warrant was displayed or permission asked to enter the house. After calling 911, she says, she ran outside and began screaming for help.
Sam York, who lives nearby the couple, was awakened by the struggle, as the Kuhns and Scarborough both came out into the yard. “I woke up to Debbie screaming,” he said. “Mark and Debbie were saying ‘you assaulted us’ and the officer [Scarborough], was demanding their identification. Then another officer threatened them with a taser. He told Debbie to back away or he’d taser her and demanded that Mark get on the ground.”
Sorrell confirms this part of the account: “When they were outside, one of the other officers produced a taser and he [Mark Kuhn] surrendered and submitted.”
Deborah Kuhn’s screams also drew the attention of Shawn Brady and several of his roommates, who live next door to the couple. “I run outside and ask them what’s going on and there’s cops chasing Mark around his car,” Brady said. “They threaten to taser him and demand that he get on the ground. He gets on the ground and we ask them what they’re being charged with. They tell us it’s none of our concern. I tell them they’re our neighbors and it is our concern.”
Neal Wilson, who lives with Brady, also saw the deputy produce the taser, he says. After repeated questions, Brady and roommate Tony Plichta said that the deputies replied that “they didn’t know yet” what the couple would be charged with.
“This is an outrage,” Brady said. “The 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments were clearly broken today.” Plichta expressed similar anger. “They actually wanted to know why we cared — these are our neighbors,” he said.
Following the arrest, the Kuhns were taken to the Buncombe County Detention Facility, where they were charged with two counts of assaulting a government official, and one count each of resisting arrest and desecrating an American flag. Their son posted their bail shortly afterwards.
This was not the first time that the flag had attracted attention. On July 18, with just the upside-down flag hanging, an Asheville police officer stopped by to inquire about the situation.
“He was very polite and just said that because it was a sign of distress, he wanted to make sure everything was OK,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We said we had it out as a show of desperation — our country is in distress and we just don’t know what to do. We asked if we had violated any ordinance. He said, ‘No, you have every right.’”
After that, Deborah Kuhn said that she posted up the picture of Bush and the explanation of their reasons for displaying the flag in protest.
A couple of days later, Mark Kuhn said that a man in military fatigues came to their door, and was driving a car with a federal license plate. “He stood here telling me that I needed to take the flag down or fly it right,” he said.
Kuhn adds that he assumed the man was with the National Guard, due to the nearby armory.
Wilson, Plichta and Brady said that after the man stopped by, they also saw him drive by several times during the following days, and one night, witnessed several other men in fatigues taking pictures of the flag.
Furthermore, Wilson said that as the Kuhns were being arrested and taken off, he saw a man in fatigues drive by and shout “Go to jail, baby!”
After his experience, Mark Kuhn said he is convinced this is not an isolated occurrence. “If Americans don’t wake up to the martial state we’re in, the cops, the police, the sheriffs, the state police will all come to our door and take us away if we allow this to happen – it’s time for America to wake up.”
Oh how I miss the old days of ‘to protect and serve’.
Was there ever really such a time? When idiots had every right to make fools of themselves on their own property and our court system was not clogged with such tomfoolery.
Should New Orleans residents have turned over their guns at the request of NOPD? Would you have done so?
He was within his right to enter their house and arrest them at that time.
Were they suspected of a felony at the time they went inside their own house? If not, then what is the justification for a warrantess entry?
I honestly don't know. Since I wasn't faced with that situation, I can't tell you how I would have reacted. What they did was unconstitutional, but there is also a law that commands us to follow a LEO's orders. My deceased husband was a police officer, and I learned a lot about what officers are up against and the laws that protect them.
Were they suspected of a felony at the time they went inside their own house? If not, then what is the justification for a warrantess entry?
I do not know. I'm not a police officer and I don't know their laws, so I can't answer that question either. You'd have to ask the police department to find out what their laws are, and which ones they broke.
Perhaps your tagline should be amended to read:
THE TREE OF LIBERTY NEEDS TO BE WATERED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF TYRANTS... UNLESS A LEO ORDERS OTHERWISE!!!
I'm not a police officer and I don't know their laws, so I can't answer that question either. [whether the LEO was in pursuit of fleeing felony suspects]
Do you still stand behind your declaration that:
He was within his right to enter their house and arrest them at that time.
Methinks the ACLU is already foaming at the mouth.
THE TREE OF LIBERTY NEEDS TO BE WATERED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF TYRANTS... UNLESS A LEO ORDERS OTHERWISE!!!
You're jacked out of shape at me because of what an LEO did. LOL Unbelievable. You do understand that I had NOTHING to do with their arrest, right?
I'm not a police officer and I don't know their laws, so I can't answer that question either. [whether the LEO was in pursuit of fleeing felony suspects]
You obviously want me to say that it's my fault a law isn't up to your expectations, and I'm not going to do it. If you have a beef about this incident, you should call the police department, (records dept) and ask them about his arrest and what charges they have filed against them.
Do you still stand behind your declaration that:
He was within his right to enter their house and arrest them at that time.
Yes, I do, because he had the law on his side! If you don't like the way the laws are, you need to get them changed. I didn't make ANY of these laws. Since LEOS make these kind of arrests all the time, the courts must back them, or they wouldn't do it. Does that mean I agree with every action/decision that an LEO makes? NO, I don't, but it's NOT my call.
FWIW, I have seen many people get arrested for failing to obey a police officer's orders!
>>When a police officer tells you to do something and you don’t comply, you’re in trouble. He was within his right to enter their house and arrest them at that time.<<
1. The law the cop was there enforcing was clearly unconstitutional - per the supreme court.
2. Not having any cause police should not go onto private property, demand papers and then invade the home if they are not obeyed.
3. Even if the cop had the right to seek a warrant at that point the supreme court has set standard for warrantlyess home invasion called exigent circumstances.
>>A search is reasonable, and a search warrant is not required, if all of the circumstances known to the officer at the time, would cause a reasonable person to believe that entry or search was necessary to prevent physical harm to the officer or other persons/the destruction or concealment of evidence/the escape of a suspect, and if there was insufficient time to get a search warrant.<<
Since there was no evidence to be damaged or risk of escape he should have gotten a warrant.
We are talking about a bad cop who should not have a badge, if the story in paper is accurate.
>>I’m with you. Unfortunately, there’s no law against being a dumbass. The cops are going to be in for it when the flesh-eating lawyers arrive.<<
You’ve hit on another sad aspect of this - those flesh eating lawyers go after deep pockets -whether by tax payer money directly or insurance payoffs its you and I who ultimately pay for what this cop did.
That's wrong. I'm arguing with you over your support for the LEO's actions, and your less than stellar defense of the Second Amendment.
You do understand that I had NOTHING to do with their arrest, right?
Of Course. My tagline suggestion was because of your Kerryesque hedge on the RKBA with respect to NOPD gun confiscation.
You obviously want me to say that it's my fault a law isn't up to your expectations, and I'm not going to do it.
Again, I have no idea where you get that. AFAIK, you are not a legislator, so I don't blame you for the law, nor the LEO's enforcement of same. (Sheesh, is there a full moon tonight?)
If you have a beef about this incident, you should call the police department, (records dept) and ask them about his arrest and what charges they have filed against them.
No need, it's in the article:
"they were charged with two counts of assaulting a government official, and one count each of resisting arrest and desecrating an American flag."
Hmmm... no charges of fleeing, or failure to produce ID is mentioned...
Yes, I do [still stand behind the declaration that he was within his right to enter their house and arrest them at that time], because he had the law on his side!
You said you didn't know whether they were suspected of a felony, but you still support a warrantless entry. Is it your opinion that warrantless entries are constitutional in the investigation of a misdemeanor?
>>It is my understanding that if an officer asks you to identify yourself, you must do so. I believe it to be a legal order.
Kuhn refused. He was stupid. You can go to jail for that.<<
I believe everything in your post is correct but for the reasons I outlined in #68, I believe the cop was by far the one in the wrong.
Don’t bother arguing with the statists on here, it’ll just give you a headache.
It just seems that alot of people were suddenly standing around as sympathetic witnesses.
I reminds me of a case up here in the Western Washington. An arrest was taking place, the subjects tried to flee. A cop or two ran them down and put them under arrest. The arrestee’s later filed suit and had a witness that a local tv news producer had “found” to testify as to the extreme brutality of the officers. Finally in court it was revealed that the “witness” was not even in the same town at the time off the incident. When asked why he had lied he said that he just wanted to help the guys and he hated cops. BTW, the producer who found and promoted this “witness” went on to a very lucrative career producing for Dan Rather. Well lucrative right up until she found him those fake but accurate documents.....
The point is; who are the witnesses? I wonder how many of them were there waiting for an incident and how many came by later to give an account that would further the earning potential of the couple.
It smells like a set up to me. By their way of thinking, if you just remove yourself from the officers presence you are no longer in jeopardy of receiving a citation or possible arrest. By that logic, if a person can out run a cop for something minor then he or she is home free. Wish I had thought of that when I got a seat belt ticket last week.
>>People like you are why this site has gone to hell.
I happen to disagree with NRA2BFree on this particular call...
But I would suggest this is something good Freepers can disagree on.
We’re for law and order. And we are for governmental power obeying the constitution.
So this is a situation where two things we believe in bump against each other and its judgment where the line falls. I’m glad to see y’all debating it - I just hope the conclusion isn’t that there is room for only one of your viewpoints because you are both addressing a vital conservative American interest.
Um, yeah, after reading the punchline...It’s obvious that it was a staged bit of BDS libtard agitprop. I’m surprised that Mr. Kuhn wasn’t screaming “Help, I’m being oppressed! Come see the violence inherent in the System!!!!” (Monty python reference)
>> The Asheville Citizen Times broke the story but their stuff can’t be posted here. A freakinasheville.com chat board poster claims this:
“i saw the news report in which the witness spoke, too. the officer wanted id’s to make out a ticket, they closed and locked the door on him and would not open the door. the witness said the officer broke the glass, opened the deadlock and entered the home”<<
Interesting. In general, delivering a ticket should not be cause to break into a home without a warrant.
I think this is gonna be a false arrest in the end.
>>Um, yeah, after reading the punchline...It’s obvious that it was a staged bit of BDS libtard agitprop. I’m surprised that Mr. Kuhn wasn’t screaming “Help, I’m being oppressed! Come see the violence inherent in the System!!!!” (Monty python reference)<<
Staged situations can still be very effective legally.
When the NAACP was trying to integrate interstate trains and busses they picked squeaky clean examples so the issue could not be so easily clouded. It worked.
Interesting.
Many times LEOs go to a disturbance, ie: loud music, dog barking: to quiet a party, etc and generally the LEO will just go to the door and advise the residence to keep it down, advise them of a complaint on the dog, or to turn down the music, etc...In all of these cases or incidents such as this, LEOs generally will never demand, or even ask to see the ID of the resident.
A traffic stop is another issue...But this was such a minor complaint, that unnecessarily escalated. Based on the witness statements in the article, it does not look good for the LEO here as it appears they took down the flag and complied.
That would be the only thing necessary to document in a report...ie: Responded to complaint call at 123 Elm street, and the occupants complied with request to remove the flag.
I don’t think the officer should have forced his way into their castle (Home).
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