Posted on 07/23/2007 10:48:39 AM PDT by AuntB
We’ve had other terrorist attacks both here and abroad.
No, he just said, "It's okay if you come here illegally. We'll just grant you amnesty."
Reagan also didn't order the border patrol to stand down on internal enforcement as Bush has done.
Can you give me a RELIABLE source that shows that Bush gave this order?
What has Bush done to reverse what Reagan did wrong? The answer is 'nothing'.
So blame Reagan for his error and the subsequent results of that (a great influx of illegals). Don't place all the blame in Bush's lap.
Okay. Reagan started it. Bush made it worse. Happy now?
Actually, it started before Reagan. He made it worse. Then Bush Sr. made it worse. Then Clinton made it worse. Now Bush has made it worse. But somehow, people want to put all the blame on Bush. That's silly.
The real question is when are you going to start holding Bush responsible for his actions instead of excusing them simply because Reagan did it first?
Please copy and paste where I ever said Bush should be excused. Oh, that's right, you can't. I never said such a thing.
Of course not. Secure borders [including a system to track and deport visa overstays] is a matter of national security and the primary responsibility of the President/CIC.
Reagan was derelict in his duty as well,deliberately and ongoingly. But he is looked on with fondness by most Republicans while all the blame is being placed in Bush's lap. That's nothing but an irrational, emotional (albeit human) response.
Again, Reagan was one of our greatest Presidents, but he blew it big time on immigration and shares the blame for the problem we have today.
I don't disagree with that at all. But as I've stated a number of times, Bush isn't the first to handle the problem in a wrong way. Lets pressure him to do the right thing, but lets be reasonable and not try to place all the blame on him.
You can deny it all you want, but 9/11 was a seminal event and a qualitative difference between the AQ terrorist attacks before that and what happened on our own soil in NYC, the Pentagon, and PA.
Meaning Bush gets all the blame that should be shared by former Presidents?
You seem more hung up on this blame game than our national security. After 9/11 Bush assumes all responsibility for what has happened on his watch since then. AQ aside, I blame Clinton for what happened on 9/11. He failed to act after WTC I, Khobar Towers, the bombings of our embassies in East Africa, the USS Cole and failed attempts including the millenium bomber. Bin Laden declared war against the US in his 1996 fatwa.
The question is whether Bush has learned any lessons from 9/11. I support the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and the Bush Doctrine. However, it is incongruous for us to leave our borders open despite knowing that terrorists are coming across. Do you know why Bush is derelict in this area?
Yep. And people overstayed their visas under former presidents as well.
You still don't get it. 9/11 changed all of that. Why do you allow the same system to remain in place without doing something about it. The US Visit Program was passed in 1996 and it still has yet to be fully implemented? Why?
By the way, your comment implies that the other hijackers were legal immigrants. So what is your proposal there - stop all legal immigration as well?
No, they weren't legal immigrants. They were here legally on visitor visas, student and tourist. We need to do a better job of screening those who apply for visas. The Visa Express for Saudis was stopped and the intelligence agencies are now sharing their info and making it available to consular personnel in their visa lookout data. We still have a partially open door in the form of the Visa Wavier Program, which allows residents of 27 countries to come here without visas. That is the reason we need a tracking system for all visitors who come here so we know when they come and when they leave.
IAGWB = IA2007 - IA2000
IA = Illegal Aliens
Presidente Bush is #1!
No other president even comes close.
I personally heartened to see more people are willing to stand up on these posts against the Border bots.
There has not been an attack on this nation like 911 since 911.
Congratulations President Bush for your awesome job.
Rest assured that the many conservative backstabbers who pretend the 911 attackers marched across the Mexican border on your watch have done little if anything to help you keep the nation safe.
Your implementation of Homeland security and various aspects of surveillance have greatly enhanced our ability to know who is in the country far beyond anything the border bots are even capable of imagining.
Though people like to quote the high side of 12-20 million, we know simply that life in America is so great and life in Mexico so horrible that literally millions continue to try to get here by any and all means.
We know with some clarity that there is a community that is not interested in constructive political dialogue but diatribe. This community is characterized by terms such as traitor and worse than Clinton.
The border radicals could have easily pulled the rug out in 2004 but know full well that Democrats are not going to enforce the border more than you have. Nonetheless, they are content to throw rhetorical firebombs at you and feign ignorance of you never promising them a Rose Garden.
There was never a promise by Bush to close the border.
He has been a man of his word and you despise this.
You will now predictably quote the Constitution to me but I will not listen.
“You will now predictably quote the Constitution to me but I will not listen.”
To whom can I speak and give warning?
Who will listen to me?
Their ears are closed
so they cannot hear.
The word of the Lord is offensive to them;
they find no pleasure in it.
The increase occurred in part because of Reagan's grant of amnesty.
Please copy and paste where I ever denied it. Oh, that's right, you can't. I never said it wasn't.
and a qualitative difference between the AQ terrorist attacks before that and what happened on our own soil in NYC, the Pentagon, and PA.
Emboldened by lack of action by previous Presidents.
You seem more hung up on this blame game than our national security.
Nope, just tired of everyone claiming it's "Bush's fault" when the blame is shared by former Presidents (and lets face it, by Congress as well).
After 9/11 Bush assumes all responsibility for what has happened on his watch since then.
Never said otherwise. But Bush is not responsible for all the illegals here. Many of them have been here for years and years (before Bush took office) and others were emboldened to come due to the action or inaction of previous Presidents.
However, it is incongruous for us to leave our borders open despite knowing that terrorists are coming across.
I agree, we should put pressure on Bush and on Congress to seal the borders and deport all illegals.
Do you know why Bush is derelict in this area?
For the same reason previous Presidents were. They didn't want to deal with it in the way it should be dealt with.
You still don't get it. 9/11 changed all of that.
It should have been changed prior to 9/11, because, as I said, we had terrorist attacks before then. I hold Bush responsible for not fixing it, but I hold the previous Presidents responsible for not fixing it as well.
They were here legally on visitor visas, student and tourist.
Yep, they were legal.
We need to do a better job of screening those who apply for visas.
I agree. As you mention in your post, we've stopped the visa 'express' for Saudis, so we've made some progress. We need to keep that progress moving forward.
He was a great man, but you cannot deny he gave amnesty to illegals.
You convince no one!
I don't convince those who want to deify Reagan and forget about the errors he made which contribute to the problem they now want to lay entirely at Bush's feet.
Just not true. Everyone isn't claiming it is Bush's fault. What many of us are saying is that Bush is responsible NOW for securing our borders and 9/11 makes it imperative. You still haven't provided a reason why Bush refuses to do so.
Never said otherwise. But Bush is not responsible for all the illegals here. Many of them have been here for years and years (before Bush took office) and others were emboldened to come due to the action or inaction of previous Presidents.
I never said that Bush is responsible for all the illegals here. I do have a problem with him wanting to give them amnesty and failing to enforce the immigtration laws on the books, including employer sanctions. Even Clinton did a better job in that area.
For the same reason previous Presidents were. They didn't want to deal with it in the way it should be dealt with.
Other Presidents didn't have 9/11. I might add that Eisenhower took a far more forceful approach: Operation Wetback
It should have been changed prior to 9/11, because, as I said, we had terrorist attacks before then. I hold Bush responsible for not fixing it, but I hold the previous Presidents responsible for not fixing it as well.
LOL. There you go again with the blame game. You sound like the 12 year old saying that all the other kids are doing it, why can't I? Bush is in charge now. He is the one accountable, not previous Presidents. It matters not a hill of beans if we are attacked with a WMD and discover that it was transported from Mexico last month. Bush has had almost 6 years since 9/11 to fix it.
Yep, they were legal.
But not IMMIGRANTS. Big difference. About 50 million people a year enter this country legally.
I agree. As you mention in your post, we've stopped the visa 'express' for Saudis, so we've made some progress. We need to keep that progress moving forward.
LOL. A real sense of urgency--not. Congress stopped Visa Express, which actually continued after 9/11, which led to CA's Mary Ryan retirement from the State Department.
When you apologize and can keep the posts civil (meaning not resorting to personal attacks) let me know and we can continue our discussion.
Please show where Reagan ever uttered those words.
Can you give me a RELIABLE source that shows that Bush gave this order?
In June 2004, the BP in Temecula, CA performed a series of immigration sweeps to round up illegal aliens. The 12-man team made 450 arrests that month. In response to to outcry from illegal alien-apologists, the team was ordered to 'stand-down'. A town-hall meeting was conducted with Undersecretary of Homeland Security Asa Hutchinson in attendance. According to him, "...the raids were executed without the approval of higher ranking officials. While the sweeps were not illegal, they violated policy and the chain of command." (See: Union official: Frustration grows at Temecula Border Patrol station & Bush official slammed for stopping illegals sweeps)
How about employer sanctions? Are they up or down since Bush took office?
Federal records show that in 2001, 141 companies across the country were hit with fines, 15 of them in California. By 2002, those numbers had dropped to 73 and one, respectively. In 2003, 15 companies in the United States were fined ---- none of which were in California. And as of May, just one company ---- in Maryland ---- was fined this year. (Employer fines plummet for hiring illegals)
"The decline in arrests of employers of illegal immigrants, said Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Temecula, and host of the Aug. 13 town-hall meeting, is due to an almost complete abandonment of interior enforcement in the two decades following an amnesty in 1986." (Employer fines plummet for hiring illegals)
Yesterday Richard Stana of the Government Accountability Office told a House panel that under the Bush administration workplace enforcement of immigration violations had fallen sharply. For instance, consider the numbers of employers who received formal letters warning about possible fines for violating immigration laws:
Under Clinton in 1999: 417 employers
Under Bush in 2003: 3 employers
(Workplace enforcement plummets under Bush)
Perhaps you could show evidence of how Bush has rejected the poor policies of his predecessors on immigration enforcement.
So blame Reagan for his error and the subsequent results of that (a great influx of illegals). Don't place all the blame in Bush's lap.
If you had your druthers, no blame whatsoever would fall to Bush's lap. Accordign to you, only the Presidents who came before him bear any responsibilty for what's going on now.
What responsibility does Bush bear for his part in this fiasco? (i.e.: the Partnership for Prosperity, New Alliance Task Force & Social Security Totalization Agreement with Mexico)
Actually, it started before Reagan. He made it worse. Then Bush Sr. made it worse. Then Clinton made it worse. Now Bush has made it worse. But somehow, people want to put all the blame on Bush. That's silly.
Fine. What exactly has Bush done to reverse the bad policies of his predecessors and correct the situation?
Please copy and paste where I ever said Bush should be excused. Oh, that's right, you can't. I never said such a thing.
Again, what has Bush done to fix what's wrong?
LOL We both know Reagan didn't say those exact words, but isn't that the message that is sent when illegals are granted amnesty? If not, what IS the message?
Thanks for the links. It shows that the station officials ordered them to stand down, not Bush. (Which refutes the original claim that Bush ordered them to stand down.) By the way, we know that sweeps for illegals continue. There have been reports posted here on FR that shows they are occurring, so it's clear Bush has NOT ordered an end to them.
Perhaps you could show evidence of how Bush has rejected the poor policies of his predecessors on immigration enforcement.
Since I never claimed that he did, there's no reason for me to do so.
If you had your druthers, no blame whatsoever would fall to Bush's lap.
Please copy and paste where I ever said Bush doesn't get some blame in this fiasco. Oh, that's right, you can't. I never said that.
Accordign to you, only the Presidents who came before him bear any responsibilty for what's going on now.
Again, please copy and paste where I ever said that. Oh, that's right, you can't, since I never said such a thing.
What responsibility does Bush bear for his part in this fiasco?
As I have said repeatedly on this thread, he shares the blame with the former Presidents.
What exactly has Bush done to reverse the bad policies of his predecessors and correct the situation?
Once again, I never made a claim that he righted any wrongs. I just said he isn't the only one to blame. That seems to get under the skin of some folks on FR, but it's the truth none the less.
And thank you for admitting I never said Bush should be excused.
Our tedious discussion is over. There were no personal attacks.
What exactly did Reagan say?
Thanks for the links. It shows that the station officials ordered them to stand down, not Bush. (Which refutes the original claim that Bush ordered them to stand down.) By the way, we know that sweeps for illegals continue. There have been reports posted here on FR that shows they are occurring, so it's clear Bush has NOT ordered an end to them.
No, the station commanders acted without orders when they started the sweeps. They were following orders when they told the teams to stand-down.
Late last month, Undersecretary of Homeland Security Asa Hutchinson told members of Congress that the raids were executed without the approval of higher ranking officials. While the sweeps were not illegal, they violated policy and the chain of command, Hutchinson said.
As I have said repeatedly on this thread, he shares the blame with the former Presidents.
Blame for what? What exactly has he done that deserves blame?
Once again, I never made a claim that he righted any wrongs. I just said he isn't the only one to blame. That seems to get under the skin of some folks on FR, but it's the truth none the less.
To blame for what? What has Bush done that deserves blame?
Whatever message you think is sent when amnesty is granted. (I notice you haven't said what you think that message is, even though I asked.)
No, the station commanders acted without orders when they started the sweeps. They were following orders when they told the teams to stand-down.
Please direct me to that in the links you provided. The passage you posted doesn't say anyone was told to 'stand down.' Even if in one particular area, they were told to 'stand down' by some official, we know that sweeps have been occurring since these articles were published in various places around the country, so there's been no general order to stop such sweeps from President Bush.
Blame for what?
LOL Did you already forget what we are talking about on this thread? Insecure borders.
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