Posted on 07/08/2007 4:56:55 PM PDT by narses
VATICAN CITY — Pope Benedict XVI on Saturday removed restrictions on celebrating the old Latin Mass, reviving a rite that was all but swept away by the liberalizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council. The decision, a victory for traditional, conservative Roman Catholics, came over the objections of liberal-minded Catholics and angered Jews because the Tridentine Mass contains a prayer for their conversion. ... In addition to Jewish concerns, bishops in France, and liberal-minded clergy and faithful elsewhere expressed concerns that allowing freer use of the Tridentine liturgy would imply a negation of Vatican II and create divisions in parishes since two different liturgies would be celebrated.
(Excerpt) Read more at seattletimes.nwsource.com ...
It's not always 100 percent accurate and should be checked against court and county records . . . but it usually is pretty close and gets you where you need to go. I ran a couple of branches of the family back into the 1600s, thanks to the Mormons! So if they want to baptize the whole fambly, including my Baptist deacon ggg grandfather, go ahead! have a ball! knock yourselves out!
( . . . it would be a toss-up whether Great-Grandpa Long would be more upset about somebody trying to baptize him posthumously into what was a highly scandalous organization in his day . . . or hearing by some means or other that one of his ggg grandchildren had turned Papist on him!)
I wasn’t raised Catholic either (I’m a convert too) but the image of that man who would come on on Saturday evening, with the funny outfit and the kind eyes was seared into my memory.
“I ran into a liberal priest yesterday, 7/7/07. He pu-pu the Pope’s directive. He claimed that the only valid Latin mass must contain a homily in Latin too. He is trying to sabotage the movement.”
Sounds like the liberal priests I remember who said several years ago that Rome ordered the Communion rails and the high altar to be removed.
I won’t call these perfidious padres liars, but what they say speaks well enough for itself.
Exactly. If contemporary is what they’re looking for, it’s time for all the hippies things to be put away, bring on the new! As it happens, what’s old is new again.
No, it's more like the Catholic Novus Ordo.
When I was in the seminary about 30 years ago (didn’t get ordained) we had a 2 year minimum on Latin.
It’s not as complicated a language as you may think. There will no doubt be missals with phonetic spellings of the words.
I suspect many Catholics have an exaggerated view of their own importance. Especially liberal ones.
I can appreciate that...particularly if you personally know the priest to whom you're giving your confession.
But along with the admission that you've done wrong, though, comes the incredible feeling of cleanliness when you walk out of the confessional.
A beautiful, and prayerful response.
But, Mark, there is another reason why the Church has not always been able to fulfill it’s responsibility to teach the real meaning of the Mass. After WWII, when so many vets returned and moved from the overcrowded cities to the suburbs, there was a distinct lack of churches waiting for them. And that includes Catholic schools. Many Catholics had to place their children in public schools, and the children had only one hour a week at religious training at the Catholic schools.
Catholic parents could, and many did, give good example to their offspring in their own daily lives, and by taking them to Mass every Sunday; making sure they received First Communion and Confirmation, etc. But the Catholic Church is so complex, that it wasn’t enough to counteract the prevailing post-WWII ‘60s.
I believe the change to English was to provide a sanctuary for those children where they could understand the meaning of Mass.
It was most unfortunate that the “new” Mass and the ‘60s coincided.
And, of course, the liberals took full advantage of the ‘60s, and the lack of Catholic schools. I have long equated the ‘60s with the Children’s Crusade where the children left home to find the holy grail, and were forever lost to their parents.
But, in my own lack of knowledge, I am unable to say what the Church could have done to save those children when the siren song of “Never trust anyone over 30,” and the lure of drugs and sex was so prevalent.
And some of those “lost” children have become priests. And now preach against the true teachings of the Church.
For my own part, I still believe that the English Mass has saved many of the otherwise “lost” youngsters. But the question remains, “How to reach and educate the rest who grew up in the sixties.”
Do you have EWTN on your radio where you live? It’s a very good start, not that you need it, and should be encouraged. And there are other groups presenting the Catholic viewpoint on radio and TV.
For the rest, we can only pray, and pray and pray for the full understanding of Catholic teaching. And I do fully, totally, and completely believe that the left will use any disagreement between those who want the Latin Mass and those who like the English Mass to try to futher divide the true Church. We must proceed carefully.
I cannot imagine that he will face any other way than toward the (liturgical) East. And I have no idea what they will do with churches constructed post VCII...those without high altars. There will definitely be some logistical problems to overcome.
Of course, then, the "ordinary" form of the Mass can be celebrated one way or the other.
The big thing is if the priest recognizes what he is doing and acts accordingly, it will not be so much of an issue. But that means replacing the "table of the Lord" paradigm with the "sacrifice" paradigm...and that will be the toughest. Not only for the priest, but for the people who have largely learned the "table" paradigm for the past 40 years.
Also available at amazon is “No Place for God” by Moyra Doorly. It examines Modernist architecture and its influence on the Church, which includes wreckovating historical churches and constructing new ones with no sense of the sacred. One of the customer reviews on the page says, “Now I’m sure the Devil must be a Modern Architect.” LOL
At my AU parish they do all that stuff in english. I don’t like it.
However, our pastor just completed TLM training and there was a bulletin that said we stand ready to implement the Summorum as soon as is allowed by the bishop, so we got that going for us.
The priest will, along WITH the congregation, face the altar. And yes, the altar will have to be able to accommodate it.
These rebellious priests are still hippies. Only now they say, “Don’t trust anyone over 70” which of course includes our Holy Father. Still rebelling, still saying, “Rules were made to be broken,” and other assorted garbage. I was a hippie, too, so I know the drill.
I know some of the Protestant ministers never really had a calling, they just went to seminary as a way to dodge the draft. I would’t be surprised if the minister of the Presbyterian church I went to 25 years ago had done that. He never preached on the Bible readings for the day (or any Scripture passage at all). His sermons were always political and used to make me very angry. It’s hard when you leave church more angry and upset than when you came!
And not only that, he used to make up his own prayers and begin them with “Father, Mother God...” UGH!
At the time, I fled to the Episcopal Church, where all the prayers were in the Prayer Book. No weird prayers allowed! But since the ECUSA is in the process of sliding off the cliff, I’ve been safely within our Holy Mother Church for almost two years now.
One way to think about Confession is as an apology. A good apology has the following parts:
In the confessional you'll find all of those elements (the restitution is your penance). One can learn alot about how to do a good apology by studying the rite of Confession.
But they're on their way out and the new generation of "JP II Priests" is solid. We've had a big jump in seminarians from our Diocese in the last four years and they're going to be terrific priests. They don't see their vocation as "bringing about social justice" but rather "bringing Christ to the people".
I got this notion of how to help Catholics who want to have at least the occasional Mass of Blessed John XXIII in their parish -— sometime before they die! —— but whose parishes have at this point, apparently, near-zero interest.
People in my situation, in other words. And there must be millions of us.
Buying the Missale Romanum and 30 copies of the Latin-English Sunday Missal won’t do. Nobody knows how to use them, and -— much worse -— nobody is really interested.
Lobbying and petition-signing won’t do.
What will draw people in is beauty, and that needs no argument: beauty is its own argument.
So what may be needed, first of all, would be a schola: a little-bitty schola starting with, say, 4 voices, which can do the simplest versions of the sung Mass: Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus/Benedictus, Agnus Dei. Put a Pater Noster in there as well.
A schola could sing these at English Masses, couldn’t they? A big plus in beauty and dignity, and it would pique interest in more Latin.
So what we need, I think, is a mass-produced Schola-in-a-Box, which would consist of a audio tape or CD, and the sheet music and instructions for singing Mass A, Mass C, and Mass C, that is, settings of the greatest simplicity, and then a little more ambitious, and then a little moreso.
You can tell by the way I am expressing myself that I am utterly ignorant of such things, and yet in my mind’s eye (and ear) I can see and hear how it would work out.
This would be a gradual, humble, patient, and beautiful process for touching hearts which will be attracted to this lovely and solemn thing, chanted Latin.
And from there, slowly, incrementally, to bigger, better, and more glorious things. On -—at last -— to the Mass of Blessed John XXIII! All Gloria Dei and no argument.
Does this make sense? Liturgical sense, strategic sense?
Cardinal Ottaviani tried to stop it, and he was the head of the Holy Office, yet he failed. Maybe you can take the time to find his grave and spit on it.
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