Posted on 06/24/2007 8:12:23 PM PDT by nj26
At first glance, Rudolph W. Giuliani should be an appealing presidential candidate for observant Roman Catholics. The grandchild of Italian immigrants, Mr. Giuliani went to Catholic schools, considered joining the priesthood, and as mayor of New York battled a museum that exhibited a painting of the Virgin Mary adorned in elephant dung.
But church leaders say they are frustrated by prominent Catholic politicians like Mr. Giuliani who argue that while they are personally opposed to abortion, they do not want to impose their beliefs on others.
One American bishop, Thomas J. Tobin of Providence, R.I., recently wrote a caustic column for his Catholic newspaper calling Mr. Giuliani’s position “pathetic,” “confusing” and “hypocritical.” Other bishops said that they would not criticize a candidate by name but would not hesitate to declare Mr. Giuliani’s stance contrary to Catholic teaching...
Archbishop John J. Myers of Newark said: “I think he’s being illogical, as are all of those who take the stand that ‘I’m personally opposed to abortion but this is my public responsibility to permit it.’ To violate human life is always and everywhere wrong. In fact, we don’t think it’s a matter of church teaching, but a matter of the way God made the world, and it applies to everyone.”
The presidential campaign of John Kerry, a Democrat, suffered in 2004 when about a dozen of the nation’s more than 200 bishops declared that they would deny him communion because of his abortion stance...
But some American bishops who favored denying communion said that recent comments by the pope would bolster their approach. Pope Benedict XVI told reporters last month that Catholic legislators in Mexico who had recently voted to allow abortion had effectively excommunicated themselves from the church.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Not certain if this will help pull this conversation back to its roots, but it seems to me that the title is misleading. Surely Mr. Giuliani does not face a potential fall from Catholic grace; rather he faces the publicizing of his earlier, private, fall from Catholic grace...
No- but you do find fairly obvious descriptions of those three:
Bible - "scripture"
Incarnation - The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" (from John 1)
Trinity - various descriptions of three distinct "personalities" (for lack of a better term) in God the "Father", The WORD (again from the incarnation reference) who was "with God" and "was God", and the "Great Comforter, also named as the Holy Ghost.
None of these rely on "tradition", but are directly derived from the Bible.
The same could be said in history of people converting FROM Catholicism to other faiths - take particular note of the Ana-Baptists.
I will take you up on the subject/person to check out when I return from vacation.
Really? Check here:
Mt 16:18-19; -- upon this rock I will build my Church
Mt 18:17-18; -- if he refuses to listen even to Church...
Mt 28:18-20; -- go baptize and teach all nations
Mk 16:16; -- go to the whole world and proclaim the gospel
Lk 10:16; -- whoever hears you, hears Me; rejects you, rejects Me
Jn 14:16,26; -- Holy Spirit is with you always, teach and remind everything
Jn 16:12; -- Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth
1 Tim 3:15; -- Church is the pillar and foundation of truth
Jn 15:16; -- Jesus chose special men to be his apostles
Jn 20:21; -- Jesus gave the apostles their own mission
Lk 22:30; -- Jesus gave them a kingdom
Mt 16:18; -- Jesus built Church on Peter, the rock
Jn 10:16; -- one shepherd to shepherd Christ's sheep
Lk 22:32, Jn 21:17; Peter appointed to be chief shepherd
Eph 4:11; -- church leaders are hierarchical
1 Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17; -- identifies the roles of bishops, priests, deacons
Tit 1:5; commission for bishops to ordain priests
There is nothing about Guiliani that’s Catholic. Not only doesn’t he represent the Catholic view of abortion, he doesn’t represent the Catholic view of marriage. Having been twice divorced, thrice married, he’s excommunicated himself and is no longer entitled to receive the sacraments. Besides being a RINO he’s a CINO. Every time he tries to receive communion he should be denied it!
Good list!
We should add the early Church Fathers and the Council of Carthage (397 AD) which fixed the canon of the Bible by defining which books are held to be inspired Scripture. That’s the same Bible non-Catholics quote to “prove” the Catholic Church has no authority, lol.
The True Faith is faith in Jesus Christ and Him only—no Mary, no saints, no nothing but Jesus. HE is the true faith and He’s non-denominational.
And he’s better off as a Christian protestant, knowing that the true faith is faith in Jesus Christ and the true church is the body of Christ, not a denomination, not the Catholic church, not any church—only the Body of Christ, the true believers who know Him as Lord and Savior.
Maybe I should elucidate. I personally think its wrong for priests to deny communion to politicians based upon their political posistion. It is virtually impossible to have rational thought and agree 100% with church doctrine. If this standard was applied to all politicians and every one of their political posistions.
1) Dems would be denied communion due to their support of abortion and stem cell research
2) Republicans would be denied communion die to their support of the Iraq War and capital punishment.
Maybe I should elucidate...
...you’re backtracking faster than any politician could ever dream of...you start out all swagger and bluster, calling the Church of millions cattle dung, and several posts later you think you ought to ‘elucidate’...
not a denomination, not the Catholic church, not any church—only the Body of Christ, the true believers who know Him as Lord and Savior...
...so I take from your commentary the entire concept of ritualized Christian worship, with all the moral and ethical promulgations contained within the body of those rituals, are completely unnecessary, and always have been...and that true worship is only to be had away from such clerical strictures-—sitting on the pot, perhaps, or picking your nose,...worship consists of whatever you want it to be, whenver you like...
We worship Christ the way HE wants us to worship him, not in rituals always but from the heart. Catholics believe they are the only true church but they err in that belief. There are people who love the Lord and don’t go to church at all. I believe people need to have church fellowship but not everyone has. Some have been badly injured by churches and people, others are shut ins, etc. but they still love the Lord and they worship Him in spirit and in truth THEIR way. They don’t need a ritual in order to do that. In fact, God desires their faithfulness and their love, not rituals.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.