Giuliani Faces a Potential Fall From Catholic Grace

NY Times ^ | 6/25/2007 | LAURIE GOODSTEIN

[bt_dooftlook]

Not certain if this will help pull this conversation back to its roots, but it seems to me that the title is misleading. Surely Mr. Giuliani does not face a potential fall from Catholic grace; rather he faces the publicizing of his earlier, private, fall from Catholic grace...

[irishjuggler]

If people prefer this than thats ok I respect their viewpoint.

Like hell you do. Calling our Church "b.s.," (the excrement of male cattle) as you did, is hardly respecting our viewpoint.

[TheBattman]

Three other words you won't find in Scripture: Bible, Incarnation and Trinity.

No- but you do find fairly obvious descriptions of those three:

Bible - "scripture"

Incarnation - The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" (from John 1)

Trinity - various descriptions of three distinct "personalities" (for lack of a better term) in God the "Father", The WORD (again from the incarnation reference) who was "with God" and "was God", and the "Great Comforter, also named as the Holy Ghost.

None of these rely on "tradition", but are directly derived from the Bible.

[TheBattman]

I agree that you would expect him to say such things after his conversion. But a little curiosity might be in order as to why he converted. He did so at great cost to his very successful career—it destroyed it, as he knew it would. And of course he lost most of his friends. He had to start his life over again, which he did with both fear and joy. What did he discover that was so compelling?

The same could be said in history of people converting FROM Catholicism to other faiths - take particular note of the Ana-Baptists.

I will take you up on the subject/person to check out when I return from vacation.

[redgirlinabluestate]

I personally do not believe in middle men clergy telling me what I can and can’t do and that is God’s will. God, Jesus, or the Bible for that matter never make mention of this.

Really? Check here:

Mt 16:18-19; -- upon this rock I will build my Church
Mt 18:17-18; -- if he refuses to listen even to Church...
Mt 28:18-20; -- go baptize and teach all nations
Mk 16:16; -- go to the whole world and proclaim the gospel
Lk 10:16; -- whoever hears you, hears Me; rejects you, rejects Me
Jn 14:16,26; -- Holy Spirit is with you always, teach and remind everything
Jn 16:12; -- Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth
1 Tim 3:15; -- Church is the pillar and foundation of truth
Jn 15:16; -- Jesus chose special men to be his apostles
Jn 20:21; -- Jesus gave the apostles their own mission
Lk 22:30; -- Jesus gave them a kingdom
Mt 16:18; -- Jesus built Church on Peter, the rock
Jn 10:16; -- one shepherd to shepherd Christ's sheep
Lk 22:32, Jn 21:17; Peter appointed to be chief shepherd
Eph 4:11; -- church leaders are hierarchical
1 Tim 3:1, 8; 5:17; -- identifies the roles of bishops, priests, deacons
Tit 1:5; commission for bishops to ordain priests

[TAdams8591]

There is nothing about Guiliani that’s Catholic. Not only doesn’t he represent the Catholic view of abortion, he doesn’t represent the Catholic view of marriage. Having been twice divorced, thrice married, he’s excommunicated himself and is no longer entitled to receive the sacraments. Besides being a RINO he’s a CINO. Every time he tries to receive communion he should be denied it!

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Good list!

We should add the early Church Fathers and the Council of Carthage (397 AD) which fixed the canon of the Bible by defining which books are held to be inspired Scripture. That’s the same Bible non-Catholics quote to “prove” the Catholic Church has no authority, lol.

[Marysecretary]

The True Faith is faith in Jesus Christ and Him only—no Mary, no saints, no nothing but Jesus. HE is the true faith and He’s non-denominational.

[Marysecretary]

And he’s better off as a Christian protestant, knowing that the true faith is faith in Jesus Christ and the true church is the body of Christ, not a denomination, not the Catholic church, not any church—only the Body of Christ, the true believers who know Him as Lord and Savior.

[NorthEastRepublican]

Maybe I should elucidate. I personally think its wrong for priests to deny communion to politicians based upon their political posistion. It is virtually impossible to have rational thought and agree 100% with church doctrine. If this standard was applied to all politicians and every one of their political posistions.

1) Dems would be denied communion due to their support of abortion and stem cell research

2) Republicans would be denied communion die to their support of the Iraq War and capital punishment.

[irishjuggler]

1) Dems would be denied communion due to their support of abortion and stem cell research
2) Republicans would be denied communion die to their support of the Iraq War and capital punishment.

Wrong. Only one Catholic position on abortion exists (or can exist). We're against it. Period. On the other hand, reasonable Catholic minds may differ on the morality of capital punishment or various wars. The current Pope explained this very eloquently a few years ago:

"Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage way, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia."
http://www.priestsforlife.org/magisterium/bishops/04-07ratzingerommunion.htm

[IrishBrigade]

Maybe I should elucidate...

...you’re backtracking faster than any politician could ever dream of...you start out all swagger and bluster, calling the Church of millions cattle dung, and several posts later you think you ought to ‘elucidate’...

[IrishBrigade]

not a denomination, not the Catholic church, not any church—only the Body of Christ, the true believers who know Him as Lord and Savior...

...so I take from your commentary the entire concept of ritualized Christian worship, with all the moral and ethical promulgations contained within the body of those rituals, are completely unnecessary, and always have been...and that true worship is only to be had away from such clerical strictures-—sitting on the pot, perhaps, or picking your nose,...worship consists of whatever you want it to be, whenver you like...

[Marysecretary]

We worship Christ the way HE wants us to worship him, not in rituals always but from the heart. Catholics believe they are the only true church but they err in that belief. There are people who love the Lord and don’t go to church at all. I believe people need to have church fellowship but not everyone has. Some have been badly injured by churches and people, others are shut ins, etc. but they still love the Lord and they worship Him in spirit and in truth THEIR way. They don’t need a ritual in order to do that. In fact, God desires their faithfulness and their love, not rituals.